Not convinced KK all-in preflop up to 100BB is good idea (at $0.50NL) - Page 5

Paxinor · #41 10-27-2007, 08:48 AM

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90% of the time its +EV to call KK or shove it. you will have enough FEQ if you shove and have good enough pot odds to call after you've 4bet for 30BB and this covers most of the situation a NL50 player with 50k hands livetime played will encounter

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Wait, why do we want fold equity with kings? The only hand we want to fold isn't folding.

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not if we need to protect against hands with 30% equity and for playability reasons. and if he is folding everything exept aces. we do have higher foldingequity if we have KK and he only calls AA,KK... same applies to AK, they are the best pushing hands against an only AA,KK caller because of cardremoval, so you do actually push to fold out better hands with the AA,KK,AK range...

@ phzon: your arguments might be correct but they are highly theoretical and have no real relevance in low stakes poker. i cannot believe that you take the high stakes TV game with its structure as an example to fold KK and imply to take that as a lesson for NL50/NL25 this is a joke.

in NL50 you will be up against pretty unknown players with a 100 BB. you will almost never come across a situation where it is correct to fold KK preflop. Because you simply don't have the information needed to do it.

first of all in almost every case you 4bet and therefore have to call against most players because of the dead money.

you most likely have to push KK because you can get calls from worse hand or will have enough foldequity after a 4bet of an opponent because of cardremoval and the point that he only will be calling with aces, but will regularly 4bet weaker hands. if he does not fourbet weaker hands than KK+, you will not have problems anyway because it implies that he is calling 3bets with AK or QQ and is not ready to go all the way with it and you will be able to exploit that greatly.

so basicly it kind of comes down to a gametheoretic more optimal way to play.

the point of it is, that folding to an all in even though you just threebet is a highly adaptive play which can be exploitet VERY VERY easily and will be exploitet in higher stakes. so you need very good information about your opponent that justifies your play. if he is an unknown you almost always cannot fold it because even his pushrange into a 3bet should be at least AA,AK or else he will be exploitable in other situations...

thats the intuition behind behind never fold KK. all those people opening these threads have selective memory and ask the same question and would most likely fold it way to often if you tell them something that "smart people" sometimes fold it and bla...

there is no evidence that NL50 players are overall so bad, that it actually makes it correct to fold KK after a 4betpush from an opponent. its just so unreasonable to push only aces there. what do you do with AK? or QQ? just call? then you will get raped. do you really want to just push it AA an "slowplay" everything else? even though you know that most people are calling very very thight.

its just SO unlikely and i think there is never a situation where you can fold KK after you did 4bet. its only possible if you get pushed after you 3bet at least mathematicly, but that really doesnt make it possible practicly because 4betpushes tend to be at least AA,AK

pzhon · #42 10-27-2007, 11:33 AM

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@ phzon: your arguments might be correct

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It's nice to see you have changed your position on that, even if you can't copy 5 letters in order. Earlier, I believe you said my arguments were crap, and then editted that out.

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but they are highly theoretical and have no real relevance in low stakes poker.

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Theory works, when it is applied within context. I have pointed out the context and given useful factors to consider (stakes, position, stack sizes, and reads) while you are making incorrect overgeneralizations... out of concern for the poor NL $50 players, who are so easily confused, you say.

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i cannot believe that you take the high stakes TV game with its structure as an example to fold KK and imply to take that as a lesson for NL50/NL25 this is a joke.

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Is your reading comprehension really that bad? I pointed out that the Farha hand that others were saying was evidence that you should not fold KK was nothing of the sort. I also pointed out that there was very little dead money in the pot before Farha committed all of his chips with KK, and in 4 recent hands discussed in the NL strategy forums, contrary to your statements that there is almost always a huge amount of dead money.

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By the way, people often say that if you are willing to fold KK, then you can be bluffed very easily. This is wrong. AA makes up a large percentage of my range whenever I would consider folding KK, so pushing as a bluff would be extremely unprofitable against me.

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besides: if you fold everything to a push other than aces, there will be people pushing into you with loads of crap... and you will lose A LOT of money.

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That is clearly wrong, as I pointed out before on this thread. In all of the situations where I might fold KK preflop, AA makes up a significant portion of my range, so trying to bluff me is an expensive mistake against my range.

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the point of it is, that folding to an all in even though you just threebet is a highly adaptive play which can be exploitet VERY VERY easily and will be exploitet in higher stakes.

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Is this what passes for intelligent conversation in your house? I repeatedly explained why my willingness to fold KK in some situations isn't exploitable, but you keep insisting that it is exploitable with no real explanation.

You said something about higher stakes. I don't accept that you are at all qualified to tell me anything about what happens at higher stakes. I have played both limit and NL with 6 figures on the table. Not long ago, you posted about datamining NL $50. Who do you think you are fooling?

You repeat arguments that have already been shot down, and you can't be bothered to write coherent sentences. I will ignore you henceforth.

futuredoc85 · #43 10-27-2007, 12:18 PM

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HAND #1
------------------

Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $1,187
BTN: $985
SB: $1,686
BB: $3,451
UTG: $1,583.75
MP: $1,012

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, Hero raises to $40, BTN calls $40, SB raises to $140, BB calls $130, Hero raises to $1,187 and is All-In, BTN folds, SB calls $1,047, BB folds

Flop: ($2,554) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($2,554) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,554) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,554 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a straight, Nine to King) and WON $2,551 (+$1,364 NET)
SB showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a straight, Eight to Queen) and LOST (-$1,187 NET)

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HAND #2
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Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

MP: $5,715.20
CO: $2,648
BTN: $528.75
Hero (SB): $2,297.50
BB: $579.50
UTG: $1,246

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG raises to $30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $130, BB folds, UTG raises to $330, Hero raises to $2,297.50 and is All-In, UTG calls $916 and is All-In

Flop: ($2,502) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($2,502) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,502) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,502 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Nines) and WON $2,499 (+$1,253 NET)
UTG mucked K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$1,246 NET)

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HAND #3
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Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $1,152
UTG: $643
CO: $222
BTN: $1,465
Hero (SB): $1,154

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, BTN raises to $40, Hero raises to $130, BB folds, BTN raises to $1,465 and is All-In, Hero calls $1,024 and is All-In

Flop: ($2,318) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($2,318) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,318) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,318 Pot ($2 Rake)
BTN mucked A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and LOST (-$1,154 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a full house, Kings full of Deuces) and WON $2,316 (+$1,162 NET)

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HAND #4
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Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $4,841
Hero (BTN): $1,000
SB: $2,243.60
BB: $435
UTG: $925
MP: $711.35

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP raises to $30, CO calls $30, Hero raises to $140, 3 folds, CO raises to $380, Hero raises to $1,000 and is All-In, CO calls $620

Flop: ($2,045) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($2,045) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,045) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,045 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$1,000 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Kings) and WON $2,042 (+$1,042 NET)

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HAND #5
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Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $1,286
Hero (CO): $1,000
BTN: $1,576
SB: $2,000.20
BB: $910

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $40, BTN raises to $140, 2 folds, Hero raises to $310, BTN raises to $1,576 and is All-In, Hero calls $690 and is All-In

Flop: ($2,015) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($2,015) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,015) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,015 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON $2,013 (+$1,013 NET)
BTN mucked A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and LOST (-$1,000 NET)

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HAND #6
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Poker Stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $265
UTG: $399.25
MP: $553.20
CO: $264.20
Hero (BTN): $778
SB: $378

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP raises to $12, CO folds, Hero raises to $48, SB raises to $132, 2 folds, Hero raises to $778 and is All-In, SB calls $246 and is All-In

Flop: ($772) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($772) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($772) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $772 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON $769 (+$391 NET)
SB showed A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (high card Ace) and LOST (-$378 NET)

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HAND #7
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Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

MP: $2,276
Hero (CO): $1,011.50
BTN: $934
SB: $1,512
BB: $331.25
UTG: $1,157

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, Hero raises to $40, BTN folds, SB calls $35, BB raises to $331.25 and is All-In, Hero calls $291.25, SB folds

Flop: ($702.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($702.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($702.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $702.50 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON $699.50 (+$368.25 NET)
BB showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$331.25 NET)

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HAND #8
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Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $210.45
UTG: $21.25
CO: $52
BTN: $212
Hero (SB): $211

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero raises to $26, BB raises to $44, UTG calls $13.25 and is All-In, Hero raises to $211 and is All-In, BB calls $166.45 and is All-In

Flop: ($442.15) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($442.15) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($442.15) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $442.15 Pot ($2 Rake)
BB mucked Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and LOST (-$210.45 NET)
UTG mucked 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$21.25 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON $440.15 (+$229.70 NET)

futuredoc85 · #44 10-27-2007, 12:19 PM

this thread is dumb

Paxinor · #45 10-27-2007, 12:21 PM

hmm i don't know when you saw me posting about datamining NL50 and i don't remember even doing that but i play NL400 online as my regular game and i think i play pretty decent for that its all a hobby to me

sorry for the fact that english is not my native language we can of course change it if you'd want to.

i never said you were wrong but you make hypothetical stuff up to prove that you smart and that you are right, which is i guess both correct looking at your other posts and i never said something else.

BUT: your underestimating people that say "never fold" to an NL50 player and that was my whole point. it actually is a good advice for most players and you can prove the opposite of EVERY advice you give to an NL50 player.

i know its possible to balance your ranges in a way that folding KK is the right play and you are not exploitable. but it nees a hell of a lot calling 3bets or then coldcalling and you need to use mixed strategies and watch that you won't get exploited in other lines which is possible and goes into the whole "exploiting argument"

but are you seriously suggesting that this is relevant for NL50. nobody uses mixed strategies and you will never have the information to evidence that so who cares?

you can call me an idiot and whatsoever and i as an idiot and alegedly NL50 player am really not capable of balancing that.

most peoples preflopplay includes calling KK preflop allin and you can easily calculate that, or you will give somwhere in your whole raise 3bet pushcall range to much foldequity away and you will be exploitable in that hand if you do not carfully allocate the hands in your different lines.

i just pointed out that practicly in NL50 online games and in most other games the statement "never fold kings" with most preflop strategies is acutally correct because you will not run into players like you or be able to fold as good as you.

in one sentence: you will never run across a guy in NL50 that will push your 3bet full stack with a good enough range that you can fold and you acutally have evidence about it because in general peoples range is lighter so you have to go with the uknonwn read before you grinded outta there!

so you might tell me i have lack of understanding but you get seriously agressive at me for no reason, even though my statement "crap" was kind of harsh and missleading because i think they are not helping even though correct and i never doubted that.

you just really want to be right i understand that, i usually want it too but you cannot always pick a statement like the "never fold kings" stuff apart just because its "mathematicly" not correct. the guy made false assumptions because of selective memory and you should have focused on that (you explained it, no doubt, but its easily possible to make wrong assumptions as a not so good player)

i never said your argument was wrong, i just added some facts that are relevant for him and other players at those stakes and i will pull out some statistical evidence for ya, i just downloaded a database of 650k hands in an other forum and will analyze it for you...

i don't see why my arguments where shot down because you did not show a statistic that the "unknown" at NL50 is tight enough in 4bet pushing to fold it. you bring up some threads as prove that it happens "a lot" while telling others that teir 10 hands were no samplesize, you did not prove that you will have enough information about a player that you can actually adjust if my first argument would be misprooved and so on...

but no harm done, i hope at least others understand what i'm pointing at with my argument even though i'm not english...

pzhon · #46 10-27-2007, 01:24 PM

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Hand 1: Hero raises to $1,187 and is All-In
Hand 2: Hero raises to $2,297.50 and is All-In
Hand 4: Hero raises to $1,000 and is All-In
Hand 6: Hero raises to $778 and is All-In
Hand 8: Hero raises to $211 and is All-In

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5 out of 8 of your hands involved pushing all-in with KK. So far, people have posted 16 hands as evidence, and 12 of those involved pushing with KK. Again, hands where you push for all of your chips with KK don't say much about the decision of whether to call when someone sets you in. The relevant hands are 3, 5, and 7.

Hand 3 involved a battle between the button and SB.
Hand 5 involved a battle between the button and CO.
Hand 7 involved a push by a short stack with 33 BB.

I never said it was a good idea to fold KK in those situations, "An open raise on the button represents much less strength than a raise from UTG. This means it takes much more room to figure out that KK is behind when there is an open-raise from late position than when there is a raise from early position." Further, I pointed out that raises and reraises are done with much weaker hands in aggressive higher stakes games (like NL $1k) than they are in the relatively passive NL $100 games. "When you are playing for pennies (or the smallest live game available), the players are very likely to be overplaying a weaker hand because they think TT is a monster. When you are playing in a very aggressive game, the raises mean less, the 3-bets mean less, etc. There is a small window in which the players are rarely going to push with QQ or AK, and in this range, calling all-in with KK is often -EV."

futuredoc85 · #47 10-27-2007, 01:31 PM

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Hand 1: Hero raises to $1,187 and is All-In
Hand 2: Hero raises to $2,297.50 and is All-In
Hand 4: Hero raises to $1,000 and is All-In
Hand 6: Hero raises to $778 and is All-In
Hand 8: Hero raises to $211 and is All-In

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5 out of 8 of your hands involved pushing all-in with KK. So far, people have posted 16 hands as evidence, and 12 of those involved pushing with KK. Again, hands where you push for all of your chips with KK don't say much about the decision of whether to call when someone sets you in. The relevant hands are 3, 5, and 7.

Hand 3 involved a battle between the button and SB.
Hand 5 involved a battle between the button and CO.
Hand 7 involved a push by a short stack with 33 BB.

I never said it was a good idea to fold KK in those situations, "An open raise on the button represents much less strength than a raise from UTG. This means it takes much more room to figure out that KK is behind when there is an open-raise from late position than when there is a raise from early position." Further, I pointed out that raises and reraises are done with much weaker hands in aggressive higher stakes games (like NL $1k) than they are in the relatively passive NL $100 games. "When you are playing for pennies (or the smallest live game available), the players are very likely to be overplaying a weaker hand because they think TT is a monster. When you are playing in a very aggressive game, the raises mean less, the 3-bets mean less, etc. There is a small window in which the players are rarely going to push with QQ or AK, and in this range, calling all-in with KK is often -EV."

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are you srs? people have much much much much wider ranges for pushing all in than for calling all in, so calling is an even easier decision than shoving. jesus do you even play online b/c you sound like a live player who plays in absurdly passive games

futuredoc85 · #48 10-27-2007, 01:38 PM

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HAND #1
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $167.15
BTN: $95.50
Hero (SB): $231.95
BB: $103.05
UTG: $113.70

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, BTN raises to $4, Hero raises to $13, BB folds, BTN raises to $95.50 and is All-In, Hero calls $82.50

Flop: ($192) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($192) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($192) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $192 Pot ($2 Rake)
BTN mucked A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$95.50 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Queens) and WON $190 (+$94.50 NET)

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HAND #2
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $85.55
BTN: $99.90
Hero (SB): $150.05
BB: $102
UTG: $100
MP: $92.50

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, CO raises to $2, BTN folds, Hero raises to $8, BB folds, CO raises to $85.55 and is All-In, Hero calls $77.55

Flop: ($172.10) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($172.10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($172.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $172.10 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$85.55 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a straight, Nine to King) and WON $169.10 (+$83.55 NET)

pzhon · #49 10-27-2007, 01:58 PM

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people have much much much much wider ranges for pushing all in than for calling all in,

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In passive games, people clearly don't, except those who are easily identified as maniacs. If people have such wide ranges for pushing, then why are people posting hands where they pushed with KK instead of hands where they called someone's push? (How about hands from NL $50 or NL $100 involving an open raise or a limp-reraise from early position.) Could it be that it is hard to find the hands that have to be there often to make calling a large push with KK +EV? I've looked, and I don't see them in my database at NL 100 (I skipped NL 50). I see them at NL 25 and NL 200 and above, and the decision to call gets easier above NL 200.

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jesus do you even play online b/c you sound like a live player who plays in absurdly passive games

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Of course I do. I have hundreds of thousands of hands of experience online at a wide variety of stakes. Please avoid speculative ad hominem.

futuredoc85 · #50 10-27-2007, 02:10 PM

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people have much much much much wider ranges for pushing all in than for calling all in,

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In passive games, people clearly don't, except those who are easily identified as maniacs. If people have such wide ranges for pushing, then why are people posting hands where they pushed with KK instead of hands where they called someone's push? (How about hands from NL $50 or NL $100 involving an open raise or a limp-reraise from early position.) Could it be that it is hard to find the hands that have to be there often to make calling a large push with KK +EV? I've looked, and I don't see them in my database at NL 100 (I skipped NL 50). I see them at NL 25 and NL 200 and above, and the decision to call gets easier above NL 200.

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jesus do you even play online b/c you sound like a live player who plays in absurdly passive games

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Of course I do. I have hundreds of thousands of hands of experience online at a wide variety of stakes. Please avoid speculative ad hominem.

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re: your first point- i just posted 2 from 100NL, but probably because its a pain to look for every hand someone shoved preflop. also id venture most ppl are only looking for hands where they had KK, since obv. the hand we have when they shove is irrelevant as long as they shove w/ less than KK. Also most ppl arent really willing to go to much trouble for this question because it has been asked and answered many times before.

2nd point- fair enough i apologize but i was just saying what it seems like. i have never played in a game passive enough to fold KK pf for 100bbs so im actually curious what site you're playing on that you have done so more than once or twice? there are of course exceptions to every rule. if the action is like utg raises, utg+1 3-bets, MP- min 4-bets, CO- shoves 100BBs then you can easily muck KK from the blinds. but in a standard someone raises, someone else 3-bets, original raiser 4-bets situation KK should never really be folded for 100bbs imo.