Are either of these well played?

VickreyAuction · #1 12-29-2006, 06:35 PM

Off-tempo checkraises don't come up much.

BB is 62/10/.9.
UTG is unknown.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises

The idea is that UTG didn't raise the river, so he's got an 8 or worse, and BB wouldn't have played a 6 this way. So I'm ahead of both, so I raise. Good?

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Button is 18/15/3 over 90.
UTG is unknown.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (17 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP folds, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

I didn't 3bet here because I don't think I'm ahead of button all that much. I cap pre and lead the flop into 4 people. Raising the flop here with AQ would be very bad IMO. I thought he wouldn't raise it with KK either, but now I think he sometimes does. From his POV, my range should be about AhKh, AQ, TT-AA after I bet the flop.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Button calls, Hero raises

He just calls the UTG donkbet, so QQ and 33 are out. So I'm ahead of button for sure. My question is, is UTG ahead of me too much for this raise to be good?

gehrig · #2 12-29-2006, 06:53 PM

hand one good

hand two is tricky. i think utg has u beat probably 65% of the time on the turn. the thing is when ur behind u have like 25% equity so getting in extra bets 3ways doesnt cost much. but when ur ahead u never have less than 90% equity and sometimes only have to dodge one out on the river. so i think the cr is good

jstill · #3 12-29-2006, 06:59 PM

hand 1s good ur not gonna run into a 6 all that often particularly one that doesnt go for the river ck raise to sandwich u 2 since utg would bet any boat 8 or better.

hand 2s closer but u have the redraws vs a flush and u almost always have button beat when he just calls, whether utgs ahead or not is tougher 33 55 are both possible from him since he called 3 bets back cold ( i think he usually doesnt go for a limp raise with QQ and a hand with one 3 in it doesnt seem very likely), id like to think hes folding KhJh A3s or something like that preflop but maybe not figuring everyone else is seeing the flop. I could also see him just not wanting to give up a freecard with that 3rd flush in this big pot with KQ or AQ.

in conclusion i like both hands

gehrig · #4 12-29-2006, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
id like to think hes folding KhJh A3s or something like that preflop but maybe not figuring everyone else is seeing the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
once this tard open limps hes almost never folding anything pf. sometimes people will but not typically

bobhalford · #5 12-29-2006, 07:19 PM

I think hand 1 is good.

Hand 2 - I think UTG is a tool for limp/calling 3 bets cold preflop and calling this flop twice only to donk the turn. I like your raise simply because if you are not best you have some cards to improve, and your hand is probably best anyways. When button calls the donk, it's safe to assume you have the nuts unless utg limped in with A3. Most likely the guy has QJ or KQ or some ridiculous hand.

DCWildcat · #6 12-29-2006, 07:56 PM

Hand 1- great

Hand 2- I still 3bet the flop. Trust me, he'll raise AQ, and often worse in this kind of situation (OMG PAIRED FLOP U HAVE AK RAISE RAISE RAISE). And you're almost certainly pummeling UTG. If you wanted to wait for the turn to make them play more incorrectly, that time has passed. I guess you can wait to c/r the turn, but I don't see a good reason for not jamming the flop one more time.