Don't raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?

[shakermaker3]

AK is very commonly the best hand preflop. there for you want to get a nice raise in while you have the best hand (this hand will be the best on the flop more times than it won't hence the raise hahah) ... This is so basic, obv you can change it up occasionally so your not to exploitable but this is so basic it's hurting my head to read this.

However, i don't think the issue here is how to play AK preflop, its really how bad most people in this thread play AK POSTFLOP.

[PantsOnFire]

By not raising AK, you are giving players the correct odds to call with a wide variety of hands.

Even if you do hit an A or K on the flop, you still may have a tough decision because of the wide range you could be facing.

So if you want to allow bad loose players to have correct odds to play any two cards and if you want to have tough decisions on the flop, then limp with AK.

In answer to your subject question, I would say yes sometimes you can limp with AK. However, that might be in a very specific game with TAGS, nits and tricky players who are going to raise behind you and you now have an option to 3 bet or smoothcall.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

you have taken the concept of not overplaying a hand to the extreme in this post. AK is not a relatively weak holding, unless you have a weak tight mentality.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

false. it shows that you want to extract value from a strong hand.

[ QUOTE ]

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to their bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

[/ QUOTE ]

assume you meant the sb, but lol. raising a hand that is very likely to be ahead of your opponent's range is not bluffing.

[Jailblazers]

Holy crap, it's pretty simple. Here's what to do in your average loose-passive game.

Raise 4BB + 1BB/limper preflop in an unraised pot, or you can make it 5BB or 6BB+ if you keep getting callers. Why? 2 reasons that I know of. 1)To get it down to HU or 3way at worst. 2) For value. C-bet every flop but Do not C-bet in 3way pots that are drawy or in any pots that have 4 or more players. Unless you hit LDO. Double barrel if you think your opponent is the type that "calls flop and folds turn." And go from there.

I recommend to keep C-betting in HU flops even if you missing and they keep calling because it gives you an aggro image to the donkeys.

Also, in these games you should be raising any PP or suited connector like you would with AK.

[CalPolyKid]

To answer the OP's question I would almost always raise AK preflop. I say almost always because obviously there are no "always" situations in poker.

Some other thoughts relating to the topic of this thread:

I don't believe that tightening up starting requirements is a good way to play a loose game, especially if the players in question are calling stations. If im in late position and see multiple limpers in front of me, I will limp more liberally to punish the limpers. I will not raise marginal hands because that is only going to build a bigger pot in which i might only have a slight edge. I still want to adhere to a solid foundation of playing small pot poker. By loosening up starting requirements preflop and playing a lot of small pots in position, I believe that will maximize the relative skill advantage over the rest of the players in the game

[El_Hombre_Grande]

Look: Its very simple: AK is a very powerful semi-bluff hand. In position, on most boards, you should fear very few hands. What you should fear is taking a flop against 5 opponents so that you are now pretty much sure that someone hit the flop. It plays very well against all hands except AA and KK. If you are too weak -tight to get aggressive with it, you are too weak, period.

And for those of you saying that you need to limp with AK to "mix it up," you are (censored) insane. Try jacking 78s or 89s or sheer dog(censored) up instead, and people won't be able to figure out so easily when you have AA and KK or AK, and you might get action. And I play 23/17/3. What are you guys playing --3/2/1?

[El_Hombre_Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you are going to play AK this way, I would agree it is a very weak holding. By refusing to play it aggressively preflop, you are begging to be outflopped. By refusing to make a continuation bet postflop, you are telegraphing to the guy with a PP who also missed the flop that he is ahead, when he otherwise would have been playing "hit to win." But now you are playing "hit to win." Otherwise know as "passive." Just as importantly, if you are incapable of making a semi-bluff with AK, good luck getting paid off when you hit your two pair or set. I look forward to further instruction, perhaps turning AA and KK into losers, as well.

[lilman2636]

ok i read a few of the responses all have good points!!
in a tournament i would call hoping for someone to raise behind me and then see how many people call after that!!
and when action is on me re raise making a loose game expensive!! to play.
it depends on the image of the raiser!!! but for the most part i would say exploit your image with ak and maximize your earnings with it.

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
not raising with AK is pretty bad unless you can limp reraise with it and get called by worse a decent amount of the time. even then, making that your standard play would be terrible.

just raise, double barrel more or check raise flops if you're getting floated a lot. there are plenty of other ways to adjust to these types of players, don't adjust by not raising your good hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

/thread

[orange]

there was a thread on this a long long time ago. or something dumb like that. some old timers might be able to remember it.