No c-bet leads to thin-value on turn and river

Sherman · #1 09-28-2007, 03:08 PM

So I think a lot of SSMTTers play like robots. They raise PF, the c-bet the flop. They fold the turn U/I or the keep betting for value.

Well, I thought this is was a hand where it pays to think about your opponent's range, your equity against it, and how to maximize value.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t2150)
Hero (t3190)
BB (t990)
UTG (t20)
UTG+1 (t90)
MP1 (t1920)
MP2 (t1630)
CO (t1330)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, CO calls t30, 1 fold, Hero raises to t180, 1 fold, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls t150.

This is a really standard spot. I have a hand that is likely the best out there. I want to protect my equity in the pot right now by raising to thin the filed and I want to raise for value against worse hands that might call. The CO called so I will be playing the hand OOP. I am going to be wary of A high or K high flops since those are the most likely hands I will be behind. However, his range is still very wide at this point.

Flop: (t450) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

This is actually a relatively good flop for me. However, there is no point in betting here unless I am trying to get value out of 66-TT or to protect against 6 scare cards on the turn (Q/A: I say 6 b/c he would have to have one for it to actually hurt me). I'm not too worried about that, so I check it to him. I also check because I don't want to bet and have him raise me with air thinking I am making a standard c-bet. My hand still has showdown value.

Turn: (t450) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t210, CO calls t210.

The sequence was good for me. Villain checked behind and a blank came on the turn. Now I am going to bet for value. I probably have to fold if he raises however. He doesn't have much equity in the pot if I am ahead, so I can afford to bet somewhat small. I don't want to bet so small that he raises with anything thinking I am weak. I bet a little less than 1/2 the pot. I figure if he raises that bet, it means he has a real hand.

River: (t870) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t330, CO calls t330.

Villain called and another blank came on the river. I have another clear value bet here. He might call with 7x or a pair like 88-TT. Because the board is double-paired, he might even call with A high. I want to bet enough that he will call but no so little as to tempt him to raise me as a bluff. I want to bet enough that any raise he makes is likely a real hand and I can safely fold. I again bet a little less than 1/2 the pot. Villain calls.

Final Pot: t1530

I'm not saying I played this hand perfectly. Certainly arguments can be made for betting the flop (i.e. flush draw, over-cards can come as outs). I just thought I would share a little of my thought process on a somewhat unconventionally played hand.

Sherman

MJBuddy · #2 09-28-2007, 03:14 PM

I've begun to check behind and immense amount more flops than before.

Typically this is due to my time spent playing HUSNG where I learned the types of flops to cbet and the types to give up.

That said, I've made immense amounts of equity out of simply checking behind and extracting out the turn and river.

I'd go as far to say, despite my recent lack of results, I'm a more dangerous threat at a table than I've ever been previously. A lot of this is post flop manipulation of ranges, as Sherman posts here.

mflip · #3 09-28-2007, 03:20 PM

I finally learned how to not cbet and it really is surprising how often people will try to bluff later streets and/or call down a lot lighter.

Kimbell175113 · #4 09-28-2007, 03:26 PM

MJ,
it's only checking behind when you're in position (sorry to be a nit [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Sherm,
Honestly, I don't mind getting it in on the flop at all, with an SPR of <3. You'd raise if he bet, right?

What buyin is this? Being the third limper, CO 'should' have more small connectors in his range than KT, KJ, etc., but if he's bad then you can't be sure.

That's why I don't mind the flop check. Why not let him pick up a pair or a draw (don't have to worry about two pair because of the KK)?

Sherman · #5 09-28-2007, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MJ,
it's only checking behind when you're in position (sorry to be a nit [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Sherm,
Honestly, I don't mind getting it in on the flop at all, with an SPR of <3. You'd raise if he bet, right?

What buyin is this? Being the third limper, CO 'should' have more small connectors in his range than KT, KJ, etc., but if he's bad then you can't be sure.

That's why I don't mind the flop check. Why not let him pick up a pair or a draw (don't have to worry about two pair because of the KK)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on the size of his bet (if he bets the flop, I would call or fold). I don't see many hands calling that I beat, so I don't see a reason to raise. But thanks for pointing out the stack size issue. I would probably call the river if he shoved, he just doesn't have much left.

You also reminded me of the other reason I bet small on the river. I bet 1/3 of his stack there. I played the hand last night, and forgot that detail. I didn't figure he would call for 1/2 his stack, so I bet 1/3 of it instead. If he was deeper, I might bet 1/2 the pot on the river.

Also, I think this was a $3/45 turbo sit n go.

jurrasstoil · #6 09-28-2007, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've begun to check behind and immense amount more flops than before.

Typically this is due to my time spent playing HUSNG where I learned the types of flops to cbet and the types to give up.

That said, I've made immense amounts of equity out of simply checking behind and extracting out the turn and river.

I'd go as far to say, despite my recent lack of results, I'm a more dangerous threat at a table than I've ever been previously. A lot of this is post flop manipulation of ranges, as Sherman posts here.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi, sorry for hijacking this thread a bit, but could you define your thoughts a bit more? Which flops you c-bet and which you don't.

If i'm the pf aggressor i mostly bet A or K high flops with not to many possible draws on it. I dislike c-betting 6 to T high flops with AK or AQ.

So, some insights on your thoughts would be very much appreciated [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Sherman · #7 09-28-2007, 04:34 PM

My thoughts on c-betting are simple. First I follow this rule:

"Give me a reason NOT to c-bet."

If I can't come up with a good reason not to, I c-bet.

The real tricky part is understanding reasons NOT to c-bet.

Here are a few:

1) You expect to get raised a lot and your hand can't stand a raise.
2) You have nothing and are playing against a player who always calls (calling station).
3) There are too many players in the pot and you have no FE against that many villain's when you have nothing on the flop.
4) More generally, c-betting has a negative expectation against particular opponents' ranges and/or likely plays.

hERESY · #8 09-28-2007, 05:31 PM

on the turn

[ QUOTE ]
I probably have to fold if he raises however.

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't this a 100% never fold spot even vs. a huge nit?

as for the hand, I think a lot of his range (AT, AQ, 88 etc) calls a near-pot-sized turn bet. Then you get to check call when he bluffs with air or vbets his 88.

just comments though, if I thought he was a nit I'd take your line most often.

erc007 · #9 09-28-2007, 06:01 PM

I think the hand is payed well...good analysis on each street. If you're going to block the river, bet 450-500. Once u bet, you're calling a shove right? CO only has 940 behind on the river. Betting 500 might force CO to shove all of the hands that he's calling with, and it will also make it impossible for him to bluff here.

hamnegger · #10 09-28-2007, 07:06 PM

i really like it. i think you can bet or check call river but i like it