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  #1  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:37 AM
Leader Leader is offline
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Default Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

Villain is a loose kind of passive 52/8/1 over 350. I haven't noticed anything interesting yet. It's pretty early in the session and I haven't done much so far.

15/30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, SB folds, Hero...

Maybe this is an easy spot for most people here I donno. There seem to be only three lines that are close to +EV.

c/c down unless the board becomes terrible
c/r/call the flop and fold the turn UI
c/r/call the flop and calldown unless the board is terrible

Seems like we have a marginal EV edge here at best vs. a 8%pfr even if we add some for the BT. If villain was agro postflop and not that smart, we could probably just calldown most boards and expect him to bet down enough. We might even c/r-calldown if he's bad enough. We don't want to raise and then fold against such a player because of his bluff frequency.

Against a passive guy, I'm not so sure this is the best strategy though. Seems like we'll be putting in a lot more bets against the strong part of his range while he checks behind his weaker hands. So c/r'ing gets another bet out of Ax and folds out overs to our pair either immediately or on the turn. It also seems a lot less likely that we will be 3-bet by a worse hand both because he's somewhat passive and because str8 draws aren't in his opening range. If we do take a c/r/call-c/f line, we're also protected from a decent amount of those bluffs by the fact that we'll be continuing on any 8-3 or club. Then, of course, we have to decide what to do with a river blank. Call if there's no heart hoping for a busted FD getting 9-1?

Thoughts on this? Maybe there's some line I'm missing or something.
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  #2  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:48 AM
Adebisi Adebisi is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

An agression factor of 1 isn't that passive for a guy with a 52% vpip. Given the relative position and 3-handed pot here, I probably just donk the flop and take it from there.
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  #3  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:07 PM
veganmav veganmav is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

Your thinking leader, and mine, are pretty different, your general attitude seems to be like "oh well,..." and mine in this spot would be like "hell yeah, a pair!"

LHE is for optimists.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:10 PM
veganmav veganmav is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

p.s. he's not passive
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:14 PM
Tryptamean Tryptamean is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

I would c/c down, but I'm not sure if that's right.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:52 PM
ILOVEPOKER929 ILOVEPOKER929 is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. he's not passive

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the most important aspect of this thread. Anyone who thinks this guy is passive is gonna make lots of ftop mistakes in these type of spots.

As far as the actual hand, I would just check/call the flop with the intention of playing passively the whole hand and showing down unless the board gets really ugly.

Theres two main reasons why I like a passive approach.

1) Taking an aggressive action and possibly facing more aggression from this guy is going to be impossible to handle correctly.

2) This guy looks like a classic terrible player. This means theres a good chance that he wont even understand what our flop call+turn call mean so he'll still make plenty of mistakes on the turn/river if we take a passive line. And this is exactly what we want to happen. We minimize our mistakes in this hand by taking a passive line while at the same time our villain still makes plenty of mistakes cuz he sux at poker and doesnt understand what were up to.

It would be nice if we could always take passive lines like this but we cant becuz there are so many competent opponents out there who will value pound us to death when were losing and give us the minimum when were winning. So when were lucky enough to be against a bad player and we have a marginal hand OOP, start check/calling down with confidence knowing the bad player will trip over his own two feet quite often.
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  #7  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:00 PM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

[ QUOTE ]
Your thinking leader, and mine, are pretty different, your general attitude seems to be like "oh well,..." and mine in this spot would be like "hell yeah, a pair!"

LHE is for optimists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree with Veganmav on this. I'd CR and almost always get to showdown but people like to play back at me for some reason [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey
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  #8  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:38 PM
joker122 joker122 is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

"This means theres a good chance that he wont even understand what our flop call+turn call mean so he'll still make plenty of mistakes on the turn/river if we take a passive line. "

what exactly should our flop+turn call mean? i think it could mean a ton of things...
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  #9  
Old 09-28-2007, 04:47 PM
ILOVEPOKER929 ILOVEPOKER929 is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

[ QUOTE ]
"This means theres a good chance that he wont even understand what our flop call+turn call mean so he'll still make plenty of mistakes on the turn/river if we take a passive line. "

what exactly should our flop+turn call mean? i think it could mean a ton of things...

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop call by a tag in that spot most likely means he has Ace high, 7x, or 4x or some lower pocket pair that he decided not to 3bet. If he has a draw on that board he would usually check/raise. If he had nothing, he would usually fold or check/raise. So If I bet that flop with nothing and a tag calls that means the hand is over unless I improve on the turn or a scare card hits that may give me enough FE fire again.

There's a good chance a bad player will not understand this dynamic which adds more value to a passive line by hero.
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  #10  
Old 09-30-2007, 04:09 AM
Heisenb3rg Heisenb3rg is offline
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Default Re: Second pair no kicker/tons of backdoors/passive stealer; line?

I like ILP's reasoning and hadnt really thought about it like that..

He's much more likely to 3-barrel bluff or not value bet
88-QQ than a good player because hes much more likely to misread our hand.
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