Razz 8/16 - steal didn't work, how to proceed?

[dereeekho]

villan may have checked a weak 7 as hero was showing 63A anyhow. could villan really bet 765 into hero's board on 5th?

[SGspecial]

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Villain's check on 5th is strange. Is he trapping? Did he pair? Was he restealing with a weak hand? Is he checking because he is behind on the board?

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If you think about it, there are two holdings that villain could have which are consistent with his line for most players. If you're 80%+ sure of this read, then you have a marginal call on 6th.

[Sp00n]

Folding 3rd is normal sorry

[RustyBrooks]

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Folding 3rd is normal sorry

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Do you mean not stealing there (I would) or folding to the raise (that seems close to me)?

[jbrennen]

Played some more with this opponent last night at the same stakes, have a little bit more data on him. In 118 hands, his VPIP is 38%.

In one hand last night, he played his (BRICK-BRICK)-4-6-3-Q-(BRICK) like it was the nuts, betting out on every street against an opponent showing a possible made 8-low on 5th street (opponent showed 8-4-2-2).

Does this change anything? Does it swing anyone to calling 3rd, 4th, or 6th who previously wanted to fold?

[SGspecial]

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Played some more with this opponent last night at the same stakes, have a little bit more data on him. In 118 hands, his VPIP is 38%.

In one hand last night, he played his (BRICK-BRICK)-4-6-3-Q-(BRICK) like it was the nuts, betting out on every street against an opponent showing a possible made 8-low on 5th street (opponent showed 8-4-2-2).

Does this change anything? Does it swing anyone to calling 3rd, 4th, or 6th who previously wanted to fold?

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Reads change a lot of things. Playing against a confirmed LAG means breaking a lot of normal razz rules. Playing against a field of LAGs means those who are willing to call down lightly will collect a lot of chips, as evidenced by a player who final tabled the recent WCOOP razz event (having also final tabled the 2006 WSOP razz event).

[PPlay]

Reads certainly change things but we also may have missed our chance no? From the villain's point of view you've completed and called a raise and have C/C and checked two wheel cards.

I still think this is our graceful (grateful?) exit.

[Praxising]

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Does this change anything? Does it swing anyone to calling 3rd, 4th, or 6th who previously wanted to fold?

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I guess we've all played this guy in one incarnation or another. I think the question is: how much do you like to gamble? His shtick seems to be that no one can put him on a hand, so he gets paid off huge on his legit ones. My choice, which I'm not saying is the right one just my own, is to play him with premium hands only.

In this specific hand:

3rd Street - (1.31 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

I am folding 3rd. Everyone "steals." It's just part of Razz and I don't have a problerm getting "caught." I also fold a variety of marginal hands to a raise, including most 8s. This isn't just a 9, it's a terrible 9. But you decided to play it. I might have, also, in the heat of the moment. But if I did...

4th Street - (5.56 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

...I'm betting out here. I got a hell of a hand, buddy, you sure you want a piece of this?

5th Street - (3.78 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

This looks like the critical moment to me in terms of the psychology of the hand. It looks like you made a six. If this guy is so aggro why didn't he bet? I don't know, but I'd be betting right at him, I'd be insisting I made that 6 and daring him to call - if he did...

6th Street - (3.78 BB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___<font color="red">What to do???</font>
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
..screw 'em, reraise.

This is why I fold third a lot. I'm either folding or betting. But this is an issue of style. The way you played it, I think you need to fold here. But I might reraise him, anyway. Make it look like you were trapping with that "made" 6. Depends on how much gamble you like, I think.

In the end, even an ultralag can catch A23.

[jbrennen]

This hand, and this villain, remind me of an article I read a while back by Annie Duke which states in part:

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Now what? If you are in position and the maniac is betting into you after the flop, just call. If you are out of position, just check and call. The reason for this tactic is this: chances are that he is bluffing. If you raise, you will get him to fold and lose all the money he would have continued to bluff off on later streets. Against a maniac you should wait until the river to raise when you think you have the best hand. Never discourage him from bluffing off his money. This is probably the most important aspect of playing the maniac, make sure you allow him to bluff every last penny.

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This was certainly a case where I had to play the player rather than the cards. I figured that his range to raise 3rd street included a lot of junk hands. With the starting hand I had, I had to basically follow the line advocated by Annie above, which loses me the least when he actually has a hand, and which wins me the most when he's got junk.

[Sp00n]

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Folding 3rd is normal sorry

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Do you mean not stealing there (I would) or folding to the raise (that seems close to me)?

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Folding to the raise is super standard.