Razz 2/4 - did I play this pretty straight up?

[SGspecial]

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Seat 8 apparently thought I played this "painfully stupid"... This was on Full Tilt, so at showdown he may have thought my hand went T-T-5-T-2-A-3, but this is someone against whom I've played almost 1,000 hands on Full Tilt in the last year, so he should know better... Maybe he was just tilting.

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Why do people seem so concerned when opponents call their play "stupid"? If someone who you really respect and is a proven winner says "you should have done X and Y differently" then I'd give those thoughts some merit. If a guy who made 3 bad calls in the same hand tells me at the end how stupidly I played it, then all I do is lick my chops that he will give me more action in the future.

That said, if you have over 1000 hands with this villain, then you should be aware of what he is capable of as soon as he limps in and adjust your play accordingly.

[jbrennen]

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Why do people seem so concerned when opponents call their play "stupid"?

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I wouldn't say I was "concerned"... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The villain here is prone to tilting, and I thought it was a bit interesting that he accused me of the bad play... In 408 hands at $2/$4 that I've played with him, he's been losing at about -11 BB/100, so you can imagine that his comments weren't given a whole lot of thought.

[adanthar]

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anyone who says to check 4th is clueless and needs to reevaluate their game in every variant of 7 card stud

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qft

[Murakawa]

Is fourth street a check call? I know that he'll just call but if you check you're saying "oh crap I bricked".

Fourth street is a bet, right?

[RustyBrooks]

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anyone who says to check 4th is clueless and needs to reevaluate their game in every variant of 7 card stud

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qft

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Either of you care to elaborate? As I see it, what opponent calls showing a Q, and folds when he draws a card under 4, and his opponent bricks?

Given that his opponent is not folding, I really don't see how he can be ahead. He's drawing 2 cards to *ten high*. You have to hope to catch really well, and your opponent to catch very badly, to win this hand. [Edit: On the plus side, hero is not as far behind as I thought he might be to villains range. Worst case I think it's something like 55:45]

I plead ignorance on all forms of stud, except that I've played a few K hands of razz. So I'm assuming there's something I'm missing here.

[jbrennen]

I'll try to explain one reason why betting 4th street here is the better move. The 4 may have paired him. In this particular hand, if I give him credit for having a random two-card 7 or better in the hole, then the chance that he paired on 4th street is nearly 25%. If he folds every time that he pairs (and he should), betting here is +EV based solely on the possibility that he folds if he pairs. I'm getting immediate pot odds of about 3.45-to-1, when the actual odds that he paired are about 3.05-to-1.

[RustyBrooks]

If he paired, he's so far behind that I would think you wouldn't mind letting him catch up a little (if he's paired you're almost a 2:1 favorite). Seems like a situation where you might risk giving him a free card that will keep him in the hand, so you can extract some bets on him. The times he's not paired (3/4), you lose less money. I think the hand can become confusing though.

[jbrennen]

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If he paired, he's so far behind that I would think you wouldn't mind letting him catch up a little (if he's paired you're almost a 2:1 favorite).

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If he paired, and if I knew that he paired, I might want to give him a free card, although I suspect that would still be a mistake. Since I can't know whether he paired or not, I'd rather that he folds if he pairs -- it's not like I've got a monster hand that wants a lot of action.

[RustyBrooks]

Well, ok, but break it down:

* 1/4 times he's paired and a free card is not too bad, a check is OK. A bet is OK too because he'll probably fold and if he calls he's getting the worst of it.
* 3/4 times he's not paired and you're not neither really ahead nor behind, a check is OK. A bet is probably OK too because your aggression may pay off on later streets when he catches an awful card and you don't and you either get him to fold, or he calls down with a worse hand.

But really, I don't see a check or a bet as being a *clear* favorite on 4th.

All I'm saying is, I'd like to give villain a chance to make (more) mistakes in this hand, without making any myself.

[jbrennen]

I guess what I'm saying is, that if you take my simplified situation above -- Villain has a two card 7 or better in the hole, and only folds on 4th if he pairs -- and these two strategies:

ST1 : bet 4th street, fold at earliest opportunity if called
ST2 : check 4th street, fold at earliest opportunity

The odds computed above show that ST1 has better EV than ST2.

Given that simplified scenario, consider these two strategies:

ST3 : bet 4th street, play rest of hand as the cards dictate
ST4 : check 4th street, play rest of hand as the cards dictate

I'm willing to bet that ST3 has better EV than ST4.