nl400 4way pot overs&fd

[The Man]

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call>raise,fold

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does a call make your hand transparent when another club comes?

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not at all IMO

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But then again it doesn't matter if it makes your hand transparent. Who is gonna fire two barrels into 4 flush board? I think calling is horrible because you have no implied odds. You also have people behind you and when they see that you simply smooth called that flop they are going to push with their two pairs maybe, but definatley their flushes or sets--not that pushing will get them to fold these hands--I just think that villian is bluffing about 5-10% of the time here and you are drawing to a club (possibly less than 9 outs if villain flopped the balls here) and you have to hit it on the turn, because he will almost always bet the turn if a non club falls. I think if an ace or king rolls off it does almost nothing for your hand IMO, but I would probably get attached to my hand. I vote fold or all in, leaning towards fold.

Fold 65% Shove 30% Call 5%

[cakewalk]

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folding isntthat bad
calling isnt that bad
raising isnt that bad

nothing strikesmeas wonderful, however

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can you walk through your thought process for each move ?

[BobboFitos]

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folding isntthat bad
calling isnt that bad
raising isnt that bad

nothing strikesmeas wonderful, however

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can you walk through your thought process for each move ?

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ok: (in short)
folding isnt so bad bc villain is showing tremendous strength leading here in the 4way pot on the mono board.im not a monsters underthe bed type, so i dont fold. plus, he really should c/r anything super big, given his relative position. but its hard to credit people for playing right. anyway, ifwe buy his hand is big, the for us to play on (raise or call) we need to either have a big enough draw so that we dont need FE (and vs a strong hand range, this does not occur) or we need FE (once again, if we credit him for a strong hand range, this does not occur). Also, there are 2 people to act.
Calling isnt so bad because you do have the NFD, whichchanges the hand. (It impacts it) It means that although you're not getting direct odds (and you dont know how live your pair outs are, again, it all depends on how strong you read villains bet to be) you actulaly DO have implied odds. how is this? well, ppl think on a 4 flush board you dont get paid off, but... if anyone draws to a lower flush (K or Q high) you get paid off; if anyone has a set, you get paid off (they like their redraw to call atleast 1 bet); and if anyone has a small flush, it's likely they try to show it down. (people dont fold big hands) again, if you feel the bet is sometimes a marginal hand, and you can showdown a winner by hitting a K or A, all of a sudden you ARE getting a good price, so calling becomes attractive.
lastly, raising is certainly defendable because hey you have overs + flush draw and the pot is big. nuff said?

so the best move is opponent dependant, which i hate saying, but also whynone of the above should be your default.

[cakewalk]

rob, you never dissapoint

[tuckercat]

these are always sticky spots. i would three bet flop.

[Percussion]

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folding isnt that bad
calling isnt that bad
raising isnt that bad

nothing strikesmeas wonderful, however

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can you walk through your thought process for each move ?

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ok: (in short)
folding isnt so bad bc villain is showing tremendous strength leading here in the 4way pot on the mono board.im not a monsters underthe bed type, so i dont fold. plus, he really should c/r anything super big, given his relative position. but its hard to credit people for playing right. anyway, ifwe buy his hand is big, the for us to play on (raise or call) we need to either have a big enough draw so that we dont need FE (and vs a strong hand range, this does not occur) or we need FE (once again, if we credit him for a strong hand range, this does not occur). Also, there are 2 people to act.
Calling isnt so bad because you do have the NFD, whichchanges the hand. (It impacts it) It means that although you're not getting direct odds (and you dont know how live your pair outs are, again, it all depends on how strong you read villains bet to be) you actulaly DO have implied odds. how is this? well, ppl think on a 4 flush board you dont get paid off, but... if anyone draws to a lower flush (K or Q high) you get paid off; if anyone has a set, you get paid off (they like their redraw to call atleast 1 bet); and if anyone has a small flush, it's likely they try to show it down. (people dont fold big hands) again, if you feel the bet is sometimes a marginal hand, and you can showdown a winner by hitting a K or A, all of a sudden you ARE getting a good price, so calling becomes attractive.
lastly, raising is certainly defendable because hey you have overs + flush draw and the pot is big. nuff said?

so the best move is opponent dependant, which i hate saying, but also whynone of the above should be your default.

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I don't see how someone can show up with a king high or a queen high flush here. I also can't put villain on a bluff here, that would just be ridiculous. I think you can be almost certain that nobody behind you will call with a Kcxx, or Qcxx. Therefore the only way that you can win against a king high flush is if the original bettor flopped the King or Queen high flush, taking away two of your outs. Therefore I agree, yes, you would have some implied odds there. But if villain has a set, you do not have odds to draw--yes, villain will probably call a medium turn bet when a club rolls off to try to boat, but he will get most of his stack if not all of his stack in on a blank turn.

I think if villain is making this bet with a low flush, the whole idea is so that he doesn't give someone with the naked ace of clubs a free card--right? Then if you call and a club rolls off, I can't see him calling off much, because his bet, while aggressive, doesn't look like the nuts(or close to it, obviously hero has the Ac)