TD 2-7 how much did i butcher this hand

[darkcore]

when i realised the hand would going on with 3 or more people in the hand i decided to drop my 8...

good, bad or plain ugly?

Euri10's TD converter

Hand number: null
Level: $1/$2
Players:
Button($50) seat 0
Hero($95) seat 1
BB($67) seat 2
UTG($53) seat 3
CO($143) seat 5

Button at seat 0

Hero posts. BB posts.

Hand: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Round 1(0.75BB)

UTG raises. CO re-raises. Button re-raises. Hero calls. BB folds. UTG calls. CO
calls. Hero stands pat. UTG takes 2. CO takes 1. Button takes 2.

Hand: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Round 2(5.25BB)

Hero bets. UTG calls. CO raises. Button re-raises. Hero calls. UTG calls. CO re-raises. Button calls. Hero calls. UTG calls. Hero takes 1. UTG takes 2. CO takes 1. Button takes 1.

Hand: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Round 3(11.75BB)

Hero checks. UTG checks. CO bets. Button raises. Hero calls. UTG folds. CO calls. Hero takes 1. CO stands pat. Button stands pat.

Hand: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Round 4(16.75BB)

Hero checks. CO checks. Button bets. Hero folds. CO calls.

any comments welcome.

[*TT*]

I don't want to answer questions about this hand yet, I want to ask you questions. I leave it to someone else to actually discuss the hand because I have a different agenda. My questions may or may or may not be relevant, but there is some interesting details about your game that you may discover while answering.

1) Why the 8? Did you consider dropping any other cards? Why did you feel you were behind?

2) Did you ever consider folding? at what point in the hand? Why did you continue if you considered folding?

3) What is your opinion of the button? Whats your opinion of the buttons play in this hand? How do you combat players like the Button in tthe future?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[DeathDonkey]

You butchered it a lot, my evidence is that you broke an 8 and both your opponents drew cards. I don't know what TT is talking about though about dropping a different card. If I were going to break, surely I'd drop the 8. Cap round 2 yourself and stand pat, it seems like that type of game.

-DeathDonkey

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
You butchered it a lot, my evidence is that you broke an 8 and both your opponents drew cards. I don't know what TT is talking about though about dropping a different card. If I were going to break, surely I'd drop the 8. Cap round 2 yourself and stand pat, it seems like that type of game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not recommending he break a different card, I'm just trying to start a discussion about the logic of the decision process. If you start to think about why the 8 needs to be broken rather than auto-breaking because thats what you read you are supposed to do then the game becomes much easier to beat. Lets face it, TD is a game of math and logic in the end.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[DeathDonkey]

Ok makes more sense now. ty.

-DeathDonkey

[darkcore]

tt,

this is fine and i appreciate your post. i rather have some insight on the basics of a game i barely understand than advice like "how to play hand x in situation y". i am gonna answer what i thought while playing the hand the best i can recall and add the things i now think may be the best play (i guess deathdonkey's post points in the direction)...

1)Why did you feel you were behind?

while playing round two i thought "i am oop in a multiway-pot, 3 players did draw against me while i stand pat and there is heavy action after my bet... oh [censored]..." and suddenly may hand just felt weak. and i remembered bits from ss2 like "that you can break a 8-7" and "you want to draw to the nuts in multiway-pots" and "you can drop the 8 multiway oop...". i think i misapplied these concept here and that i should have played my hand as hard as i could. as long none of the others stands pat.

Why the 8? Did you consider dropping any other cards?
if i drop the 7 or the 8 does not change the number of outs to stay equal or improve my hand. but when i discard my 7 the average strength of the hands i draw to is worse.

2)Did you ever consider folding? at what point in the hand? Why did you continue if you considered folding?

in this big pot: no, not before round 4.
but as played i guess after the bet and raise in round 3 would have been a good point to get away from my hand.

3) What is your opinion of the button? Whats your opinion of the buttons play in this hand?

i think he played well. he started on some good draw, improved after the first draw, used his position in round 2 to make me insecure and improved again after the second draw.

How do you combat players like the Button in tthe future?

stay pat and charge more in round 2 and later streets as long as he doesn't stand pat?



if something is wrong (or stupid) in my post... please correct me. and thanks for your input.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
1)Why did you feel you were behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your getting 12.5:2 immediate odds out of position, although it will probably be more like at least 15.25:2 (the hand converter is wrong) with a good chance of the hand being capped by CO. Have you been watching your opponents play so far? Have you ever seen them get frisky before? Remember that this is a cheep street, are they willing to get out of line with a draw to the nuts to put you (and each other) to the test to get the hand heads up - and thereby increase their equity in the pot? Since you are getting 6.13:1 effective odds do you think capping and remaining pat is a good move? If they are thinking opponents it might scare the daylights out of them and force them to break a rough hand - remember many donkeys overplay their rough hands on the cheep streets in this game! Yes your hand is kinda rough too but you have the advantage of acting first and already having a pat hand before your opponents tried to represent a pat hand.

From the results of their world class spewage I'd say you might want to consider a different table if you can't take the heat, or consider a seat that is always acting last (or first) between these two idiots.

[ QUOTE ]
Why the 8? Did you consider dropping any other cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right answer. By dropping the 8 you have 8 outs to improve to a 7, and 3 more outs to the 8 once again. with effective odds of 6.13:1 + implied odds of up to 3 additional bets on this round alone I don't mind deciding to drop the 8 - again its player and situation dependent so know your opponents (and make your decision after the bet & re-raise while considering the possible remaining action, not at the end of the round). I couldn't tell you if I'd cap and stand pat or call and drop the 8 because I want more history at the table before I can make a decision.

[ QUOTE ]
2)Did you ever consider folding? at what point in the hand? Why did you continue if you considered folding?


[/ QUOTE ]
The pot is 21.25BB going into the 3rd round. I'm riding this one out, you are getting the odds you need to draw to just 4 outs.. NEVER FOLD!

[ QUOTE ]
3) What is your opinion of the button? Whats your opinion of the buttons play in this hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is a world class spewer, he shouldn't have put that many bets into the first and second round with a good draw, its ridiculous - the pots odds were worse than the odds he needed to make his hand! This is common play at the top levels of the game, it creates high variance and the play has a -expected value. Think about it, he is getting 9.25:2 on round 2 when the action gets to him... a 3-bet isn't the greatest if he has 8 effective outs.

[ QUOTE ]
How do you combat players like the Button in the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

Change your position, change your table. These are probably your best options. If thats not possible then consider holding on to your hand and manipulating the size of the pot like you did - play possum and stay pat regardless. OR cap and stay pat. Unfortunately I am not sure which is best.

I hope this helps... sorry I forgot to answer your response sooner!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]