When are games too good?

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

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I definitely don't hate games like this, but because of the "schooling" effect they aren't the easiest to play. The variance almost makes it a crap shoot. The only edge seems to be preflop hand selection and knowing when you obv drawing dead (although knowing if you are drawing dead in these games is tough too).

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I kind of envy you. Guys like me, we have to wait months for a good new poker book to come out. You, on the other hand, have about 20 in the book store waiting for you right now that will be great reading :-)

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I'm reading one right now that talks about this very thing. Check out page 80 of Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth.

I'm not saying that I don't know what the right play is most of the time in games like this. It is usually obv. My biggest problem is that I usually have no idea how strong my hand is when most of the players check and call, check and call. They seem to slow play everything. {shrug}

I definitely have a lot to learn about playing holdem, but I'm not that new. I've read 15 of those books already, some of them twice or three times.

I definitely think the law of diminishing returns applies here. It doesn't mean you should avoid tables like this. It just means that every bad player that joins doesn't contribute another equal amount of dead money to the good players.

I just brought this up because it is something that I have read about but never experienced until now. It's not a rant about running bad or suck outs. I don't care about that. It was an interesting experience, that's all.

[Harv72b]

*grunch* (then I'll go back & see how much of this I'm just repeating)

In a game like this, one pair hands have little value. Two pair hands which don't include the top card also have little value. Raise with an equity edge, fold without one, take free cards, limp speculative hands, rinse, repeat, profit.

[Mook]

** Grunching here, so would be surprised if some of these arguments haven't already been made. **

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I read an essay Mr. Malmuth wrote a while back about games that are too LP. When almost everyone sees the flop and 3 or more on average showdown you end up playing against too many hands drawing against you. Even if you are good right now the 4 or 5 other who are going to call down have a good chance to beat you as a group.

I play at a table like this the other night. I would try to isolate or reduce the playing field, but would still get many callers. It was crazy. Big pairs didn't have much value. Sets would get beat by runner runner flushes or straights. I usually welcome this type of play, but it is like there are 6 people on one team and you are the only one on the other.

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This is almost exactly true. However ... and this is a critical concept ... it also means you're getting 6:1 on your money when you win.

Therefore, against 6 people who will play no-fold-'em after the flop, you need to play starters that will win ~16-17% or more of the time, and you need to raise with most of them to push your equity edge. The single biggest leak I see in games of this nature is from people who get gun-shy after the third or fourth time their overpair or top set gets run down by 96o, and as a result stop pushing the enormous preflop equity edge they often have coming in against a bunch of people holding what are essentially two random cards.

Playing passive in a game like this is like playing the prevent defense in football ... you're so concerned with not giving up the "big play" that you'll get nickel-and-dimed to death and often wind up losing anyway! Stay aggressive! When you're in a pot, you'll have a much better chance of winning than your average opponent will, so better to take your (theoretical) share of as much money as he or she is willing to give you.

By the same token, you need to push your equity after the flop on hands that have a greater-than-average chance to be best at the end, regardless of whether they're best now! Yes, you should play A2s from UTG in this type of game, and yes, when you flop a flush draw with it, if you know that 4-5 other people are coming along for the ride you need to cap your ace-high on the flop if given the opportunity ... even if the person in there raising with you turns over pocket aces! In games like this, it doesn't matter what hand is best before the flop or on the flop ... it only matters what hand is most likely to be best when all five cards have been dealt.

There is no such thing as a game that's "too" loose-passive, and you can take that to the bank.

Mook