value bet, need some help here

[allyasia]

can somebody explain value bet and what's the situation to use it?
I found this to be another leak of my game.
not putting out that value bet for extra money, or put out that value bet, but it's dead money i'm putting in the middle.
if you have HH with explaination, that would be most appreciated.
for example why i think this is the leak that i need to patch.
IE 1) say 88, no raise PF, out of position.
flop 8K7, bet the flop, get call
Turn 2, bet the turn, get call.
River J, I ......value bet here? of course i would have hard time to call a raise here.

IE 2) AH 2H with on button
Flop 9H 3H 2C, villian bet pot, i call.
Turn JH, villian check, I bet the pot. villian call.
River 3C. villian check I value bet here? if i got action, my flush is certain no good.

[Xylocain]

Hand 1 cap flop, turn and river.
Hand 2 raise flop, cap turn cap river.

[thrasher789]

How would you have a hard time calling a raise with your set? If anything I'd pray for a reraise from someone holding JK so I could come back over.

[Small Fry]

A value bet is simply making a bet that you feel will be called by a worse hand. It is typically made on the river.

In scenario 1 a bet on the river is definitley a value bet as you expect the player to call with probably a King (weak kicker) You hope he raises as you will still most likely have the best hand...only pocket kings and pocket Jacks beat you. The next question is his, assuming you bet and he raises, is his hand good enough to call a reraise by you and how strong would it have to be for him to reraise. If he only has King, rag he might not call your reraise so there is no value to be made. And if he reraises does he do this with 2 pair or deos he need at least a set?

Example 2. Only hands that beat you are full houses. Most players riviering the boat would bet out for fear of you checking behind. You need a really strong hand to bet this river, which you have, but he doesn't know that. You could easily have a pair of Jacks. You might call a bet with that but (value) betting this river with just a pair of Jacks might not be best. What calls you that you beat? To value bet you need to get a worse hand to call.

Value betting is based on reads and opponents tendencies. A player that will call you all day with middle pair you value bet your top pair all day long. But if another player will only call you with a hand thats better there is no value to be gained.

Another situation is against straight forward and tricky players. If you make a value bet against a straight forward player and get raised you can usually be sure they have a fairly strong hand. You now need to determine how your hand fairs against this raise and decide to call or fold (saving a bet) Against a tricky player it becomes much tougher as they will also raise as a bluff. You could now fold the winning hand. So it pays to know your opponents, what they're capable of and use that information before making your decisions.


Hope that helps. Good luck

[allyasia]

i understand about IE2
but for IE1, nobody fear a straight? T9 with OESD, there are people that would call this down to the river.
or AM I seeing too many monster under the bed.

[thrasher789]

noone sees more monesters under the bed than me, It's sick how bad I run, but I still wouldn't be too scared, If I got popped I'd defaintly call, you're right I probably wouldn't rereaise

[Small Fry]

[ QUOTE ]
i understand about IE2
but for IE1, nobody fear a straight? T9 with OESD, there are people that would call this down to the river.
or AM I seeing too many monster under the bed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unless I get reraised on the river. Then that goes into the realm of possible hands. (I assumed you bet enough to give bad odds to the straight draw. If they're willing to take the worst of it you'll get their money sooner, rather than later).

So ,lets assume you bet river and get raised. Possible hands include top pair, two pair, sets and the straight. You beat all the top pair and two pairs and some sets. Unless you know that this player would only reraise you with a hand that is the nuts or real close (so at a minimum he has to have a set of Jacks to reraise) you must call.

IT comes back to knowing your opponent. If you can fold to a raise with confidence that you're beat then a bet here on the end is even more important. If you check it , he'll bet and you'll have to call. You lose one bet either way. But if you allow it to go check / check the times he would have called and lost, that is when you are leaving money on the table.

IMO, the only reason to check this is against a tricky opponent where you cannot be at all sure of what his river raise might mean. Folding costs you the whole pot and would be a terrible mistake. Calling when you're beat is bad but much less of a mistake than folding so you must call. So now you lose two bets. The one nice thing about tricky opponents is they also tend to like bluffing. So checking the river allows him to bluff at it and you gain value from this (value check....lol)when you call and win. Sometimes you call and lose, but it's only 1 bet.

ps. some of the above assumes pot sizes are (much) larger than stacks or current bets (like a limit game). If it's NL then it gets trickier. But generally in NL you do not value bet as much as in limit.