Anyone heard anything: "What no one is saying about internet poker"

[phydaux]

bernie,

Do dishonest people exist. Of course they do. I'm not denying the existence of dishonest people. I acknowledge that fact.

However, do on-line casinos have a huge incentive to run an honest business, and a huge disincentive to run a dishonest business? Yes, and I don't see you acknowledging that fact.

The point I am trying to make is that the casino's incentive to run an honest business and their disincentive to run a dishonest business together will overcome all the the most greedy or most stupid corporate executive's desire to run their company dishonestly for higher short term gain. In fact, you have to be both very greedy and very stupid to run a publicly traded business that way.

Did Enron's corporate officers loot the company for their own personal gain? Yes. Those men are now in disgrace, and will never serve as a corporate officer in a publicly traded corporation ever again. All their education, years of experience and hard work are pissedaway and they will never be trusted with other people's money ever again.

Also, their company is in disgrace. No one will ever trust Enron or invest their money with that company again. It is in ruins, unable to make a profit. And because Enron was publicly traded, the corporate officers are both criminally and civilly libel.

You can hold up Enron and perhaps 3-4 other Fortune 100 companies as anecdotal evidence of corporate greed and malfeasence. This is the fallacy of anecdotal evidence - It ignores the other 95% of well-run, profitable Fortune 100 compaines.

Enron and it's officers serve as a cautionary tale to all the greedy capitalist corporate officers in the other companies, reminding them that there is more long term profit available for everyone if they just run the company honestly.

You point to examples of corruption in B&M casinos as evidence of likely corruption at on-line casinos. This is not a like-to-like comparison. In a B&M casino you have possible collusion with dealers, players marking cards and other practices that are just not possible in an on-line casino.

Yes, in days past casinos skimmed the profits and turned them over to disreputable figures. Recall that in those days many if not most casinos were family owned. Binion's Casino was owned by the Binion's family. And in family ownership, or any private ownership, you are able to play things much closer to the vest, and that is a breading ground for corruption.

Most casinos today, B&M or on-line, are corporate-owned. Remember, those corporations are run by greedy capitalist corporate officers. Those greedy capitalist corporate officers crave oversight and regulation because oversight and regulation helps eliminate corruption. And corruption is harmful to long-term profits.

REMEMBER - Greedy capitalist corporate officers! It's always all about the PROFIT!!! Always! And there is ALWAYS more long term profit in an honest, well run company.

It's their greed that keeps them honest. That's why Ayn Rand said "Greed is a virtue."

[Exsubmariner]

Oops, I just started a thread on this in internet gambling....

Anyway, my intuition tells me this book is more about the rampant cheating that happens between rings of colluders than anything else. I noticed some back and forth about the whole rigged notion, and I'm not willing to touch that one.

However, I can't find flaw with the idea that rings of colluding players who stay one step ahead of the sites are making the game tougher and tougher to beat.

[renereal]

i know of some guys who use different screen names who play on the same site

[phydaux]

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my intuition tells me this book is more about the rampant cheating that happens between rings of colluders than anything else.

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i know of some guys who use different screen names who play on the same site

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Again, easily done but also easily detected and eliminated. Most big sites have active measures that root this out.

[Rob-L]

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This is like saying why would casinos ever cheat? Why would casinos skim profits(which they have done before)?

b

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Do you even understand what skimming is? The other poster asked why an online casino would cheat it's customers when it's guarenteed a rake. Skimming is individuals stealing from the casino, not from the casino's customers. Your argument makes no sense.

[phydaux]

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who regulates poker sites? if its these little countries they opertate from then theres no hope because there goverements want a piece of there pie and they wont stop the sites if they are bringing in good money.

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Many of these sites are regulated by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. This falls under the "better than nothing" heading when it comes to regulation, but hey, at least it's something.

The governments of "these little countries they opertate from" (in the case of Poker Stars it's The Isle of Man) get their taste via legal taxation of corporate profits. Again, it's in the interest of these countries for the games to be run fair and square so that the on-line casinos are around for a long time, and the gready capitalist corporate executives earn lots of profit for them to tax away.

IIRC, Poker Stars reported profits of $US 600M in 2006. That's about 2 mil a day, all from the rake we pay.

I don't know how the taxes are structured on The Isle of Man, but if it's anything like the US they would take ~20-30% of that, or 180 mil.

[bernie]

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However, do on-line casinos have a huge incentive to run an honest business, and a huge disincentive to run a dishonest business? Yes, and I don't see you acknowledging that fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I deny that's a possibility? Please quote it. You, however, have stated that it's basically unfathomable the other way. Which is totally wrong. It's very possible.

Of course that's a fact. Many do, and should do, this. The problem is you're saying everyone is running them legit. You have no real way of knowing that for sure. You're acting like it's black and white. Far from it. You have no idea who's fingers might be in some of the pies on those sites.

[ QUOTE ]
Did Enron's corporate officers loot the company for their own personal gain? Yes. Those men are now in disgrace, and will never serve as a corporate officer in a publicly traded corporation ever again. All their education, years of experience and hard work are pissedaway and they will never be trusted with other people's money ever again.

Also, their company is in disgrace. No one will ever trust Enron or invest their money with that company again. It is in ruins, unable to make a profit. And because Enron was publicly traded, the corporate officers are both criminally and civilly libel.

[/ QUOTE ]

There really isn't any recourse, legally, if an online site screws you. Dutch Boyd comes to mind again.

As far as I know, no site has given full consent to thoroughly look at their whole program and how it runs. Kawawhatever seems to farm that out to another place. Just looking at an RNG isn't really that much. It is very easy to jack around in a comp program and make something very subtle. That's what you may be missing. It doesn't have to be anything major and noticeable. Just a little subtlety can generate quite a bit of cash. Especially when you're talking about the volume of hands they're getting.

[ QUOTE ]
You point to examples of corruption in B&M casinos as evidence of likely corruption at on-line casinos. This is not a like-to-like comparison. In a B&M casino you have possible collusion with dealers, players marking cards and other practices that are just not possible in an on-line casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is alot more open ground for cheating in an online casino. There just aren't that many levels watching everything. You're actually going to say that stuff can't be done? Both internally(program-wise) or on a table? Please. That's just an absolutely ridiculous statement.

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Most casinos today, B&M or on-line, are corporate-owned. Remember, those corporations are run by greedy capitalist corporate officers. Those greedy capitalist corporate officers crave oversight and regulation because oversight and regulation helps eliminate corruption. And corruption is harmful to long-term profits

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, feel free to tell that to the members of the Teamsters union that helped fund some of those casinos(through their pension funds) w/o even asking their members.

I looked at the Kawa-whatever site and how they regulate it. It's a joke. It's a feel-good deal that tries and makes everyone feel safe about online sites. The only thing I could figure if someone paid a fine was that if they didn't, they wouldn't be part of their group. Kind of like the BBB. Big whoop. One should still be aware that anything is possible in that sort of medium.

There still isn't really any recourse or anything they do if they find anything and the site doesn't want to pay anything. Again, I saw no claim on there of any wrongdoing of anyone. Figure in all this time, there'd be at least one.

To say it's impossible just because you wouldn't do it(even for obvious reasons which I agree with) is wrong. You're looking at the whole situation with blinders on. That's not the same as saying all sites are bad or anything like that, which is what you seem to think I'm implying. It's not. I'm saying be aware of the possibilities. They are very real.

b

[bernie]

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This is like saying why would casinos ever cheat? Why would casinos skim profits(which they have done before)?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even understand what skimming is? The other poster asked why an online casino would cheat it's customers when it's guarenteed a rake. Skimming is individuals stealing from the casino, not from the casino's customers. Your argument makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense in regards to a casino already making tons of money for it's owners, yet the owners want a little more cut. Why isn't the initial amount good enough? Why wouldn't they just be satisfied with making $x amount instead of trying to hide some? See how it fits?

Makes perfect sense with the concept we're talking about. The mentality of why someone would want more when what they're making is more than enough.

b

[Noo Yawk]

Phydaux,

Are you saying that it's unlikely for an online pokersite to engage in activities that cheat their customers?

Why? Because they have too much to lose? History is full of companies, governments and individuals that weren't satisfied with their earnings or powerbase. I know that every internet marketer that works for the sites or affiliates likes to jump on these "rigged" posts, but let's be realistic in the possibility of some shady practices.

Sorry, but it's naive to believe 100% that sites are legit, just as it's paranoid to believe 100% that they are.

[raistlinx]

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You do realise that even on-line casinos are regulated, don't you? Kahnawake Gaming Commission?

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From their website:

"The Kahnawake Gaming Commission, established on 10 Ohiarí:ha/June 1996 pursuant to the provisions of the Kahnawake Gaming Law, MCR No. 26 / 1996-97, is presently comprised of three members appointed by the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake: Alan Goodleaf (Chairperson), John K. Diabo, and David Montour.

The Commission is empowered to regulate and control gaming and gaming related activities conducted within and from the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake in accordance with the highest principles of honesty and integrity."

Three people from an Indian reservation in Canada.