c/c bet line - when to use it

[Vinetou]

Do you ever use c/c bet line? I don't because I prefer to use c/r bet line, but this line is more risky and is not good for mediocre hands that can't stand a big pot. I either c/r b or c/c all streets. But there might be certain spots for c/c bet line, like when you have a middle pair against an aggressive player and you don't want to call off your money because you know he will bet all three streets. It costs less than a c/r bet line and is a good way to get some information. So it might be better for mediocre hands like middle pair. Of course you have to mix it up.

I used that line yesterday as a bluff after I c/r a guy a lot and I figured he will believe me more if I used c/c bet line. Just an example.

And what does it mean if opponent uses it?

This is a general discussion so feel free to post HH if you used it and any comments you have.

[vodoo]

i am only playing c/c if i flopped a really strong hand and when i know that my opponent is agressive.

I play draws this way sometimes, but only cause these donks bet 20 in a 180 pot so that there is no reason to raise because you can draw so cheap.

[Vinetou]

[ QUOTE ]
i am only playing c/c if i flopped a really strong hand and when i know that my opponent is agressive.

I play draws this way sometimes, but only cause these donks bet 20 in a 180 pot so that there is no reason to raise because you can draw so cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you thinking about c/c all the way down? I hope I was clear, I meant c/c bet line. You check call the flop and donkbet the turn.

[Dromar]

I was just thinking about this in this thread.

paraphrased:
[ QUOTE ]
Villain 1025
Hero 975

Holecards:
9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Preflop
Villain posts SB 5, Hero posts BB 10. Villain raises 20 to 30, Hero calls 20 .

Flop 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] POT: 60

Hero checks, Villain bets 60 ,Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great time to c/c bet. Villain had 100% c-bet rate, and there's a plethora of unmade and weak made hands he'll c-bet here. When the turn comes, your bet will fold out the air, and force villain to fold or pay for his many possible draws. It also helps get us out of the reverse implied-odds situation we would find ourselves in if we elected to call down all the way, as mentioned in OP.

A c/r will also do these things, but will create a few problems:

1.A semibluff 3-bet/raise by villain is much more viable on the flop than on the turn, which causes problems for Hero.

2.If villain chooses to call our c/r, we're in a position where we want to see a cheap showdown because our hand has value, but we can't stand to call bets on the turn or river, especially since we've just bloated the pot. This puts in a very difficult situation, and we're probably going to have to either fold to a bet on the turn or river, or spew chips hoping for a good showdown. A similar difficult situation occurs when we c/c-bet, except that when villain calls our turn bet, we'll already be moving on to the river, making a showdown much more likely to be free/cheaper.

[Vinetou]

Interestingly enough, similar hand than the one you mentioned, Dromar, motivated me to start this thread. I agree with you that c/c bet line is good in that spot. I wanted to show it later, because I don't want the whole thread to concentrate around one hand, but whatever.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($394)
Button ($429.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($16) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $16</font>, Hero calls $16.

Turn: ($48) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $40</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $48

I think I should use c/c b line here. Villain is not bluffing a lot, but he might be capable of doing it.

[vodoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am only playing c/c if i flopped a really strong hand and when i know that my opponent is agressive.

I play draws this way sometimes, but only cause these donks bet 20 in a 180 pot so that there is no reason to raise because you can draw so cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you thinking about c/c all the way down? I hope I was clear, I meant c/c bet line. You check call the flop and donkbet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

that seems to work good.
But i dont think that you can say things like that in general.

Say i have A8 and the flop comes 887.
i check donk bets and i call
turn comes the A
Here i might check again and going to call again maybe to shove on the river.
Because on a paired board like that there is only a low chance that villain had hit the flop.

The Q10 is a good example imo, i play c/c there

[rumnchess]

against very aggressive maniacal opponents, the check-call, bet line has a huge weakness. these opponents will often look for any opportunity to raise, and check-calling and then betting can look very fishy, which is a prime opportunity for a maniac to raise. if you get raised after betting the turn you probably have to throw middle pair away, but you might be good. i prefer to check raise flop with a hand like middle pair in most situations. its the cheapest way to find out where you are. yes, you might get reraised and have to throw your hand away, but against very aggressive opponents, its often best to wait for better situations, such as top pair good kicker, and then let them bluff their chips off