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  #21  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:21 PM
Uglyowl Uglyowl is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

It's really a shame this has become such a big issue [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] This is not what is needed right now.
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:39 PM
LesJ LesJ is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

The Engineer and the work he has done should stand out as a great testament to the great minds and talent that frequent these forums. I would think 2+2 as a whole (and the "leaders" here - up to and including Mason) would be proud of the impact TE has made in these legislative battles. The whole situation is ridiculous and leads me to question Mason's priorities.

Les
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:53 PM
Coy_Roy Coy_Roy is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

[ QUOTE ]
The Engineer and the work he has done should stand out as a great testament to the great minds and talent that frequent these forums. I would think 2+2 as a whole (and the "leaders" here - up to and including Mason) would be proud of the impact TE has made in these legislative battles. The whole situation is ridiculous and leads me to question Mason's priorities.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:54 PM
1p0kerboy 1p0kerboy is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

[ QUOTE ]
The whole situation is ridiculous and leads me to question Mason's priorities.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT
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  #25  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:01 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

I've been absent for a while but I'm back, and would like to comment on this situation. Mason's position and the thoughts of various posters were detailed in the other thread, but let's summarize the situation. Mason has a neutral at best position on the PPA and won't change to positive unless issues dealing with the conflicted interests on the board, and with transparency, are first addressed in a satisfactory manner. BUT in the meantime, he is perfectly willing to let the PPA be discussed, and for official reps of same to post here as well, with no censorship of their views even when they differ from Mason's. All he has required is that those official reps like Mr. Pappas and Bryan be so identified, and that board members of the PPA be as well. That's not really a lot to ask for unlimited and uncensored access to these forums, which brings together the largest body of poker players on the net.

And again, all the Engineer has to do to address his own concerns is simply add to the PPA board member note that he is speaking his own views and not acting in that instance as an official spokesman.

"PPA board member speaking his own private viewpoints and not necessarily those of the PPA" - or someting similar.

It might be tedious, but the Engineer could simply cut & paste a standard such ending or even use an AHK script. Super easy.

I hope the Engineer doesn't get hung up on this and even if he disagrees with the demand, views it as worth complying with in order to help continue advance the work of the PPA as he has so ably done in this forum.



Now I have something to say to the rest of you professing outrage. You are the ones who by your refusal to take seriously important problems with the PPA (which admittedly are getting better though after two years of misteps and failure) who are hurting the cause we have. Instead of working to try to get two or so board members to resign (*without* first voting on their replacements), and then the newly constituted board to deal with the transparency issue, you make every excuse and sweep every criticism under the rug.

Sure you might say you understand, but how does that understanding translate into action? Have even one of you emailed Ms. Schulman asking her to resign and take one other affiliate farm interest board member with her? Or have you emailed Greg Fossilman Raymer to ask him to broker such resignations for the good of the PPA? Instead of always criticizing Mason or those other of us who have expressed concerns in the past about the PPA, why can't YOU try to do something to address these concerns instead of just demanding everyone ignore same and kowtow to the PPA *in its current state*?

And here's the main issue in all this. Either this forum and 2p2 in general (and Mason's positive endorsement) is very important to the success of the PPA or it's not. If not, then why waste words arguing against Mason's actions and the viewpoints of some of us who share his concerns? Just move on.

BUT if 2p2 is important, as I believe it is, because it has the ability like no other place on the net or in the B&M world to bring together the largest mass of poker players who can be induced to act in concert for our cause by the great efforts of posters like TheEngineer, then I would submit that you should spend as much effort seeking to remove the concerns some of us have, as you do in criticizing us. That means as I said above contacting relevant board members and asking them to resign for the good of the PPA. And it means taking seriously the board and transparency issues, which you *should* given headsup Berge gave us to the Politico article which shows our foes are trying to capitalize in typical political fashion on *any* perceived negative to deflect attention away from our arguments which they can't rebut.

Even if you think that Mason and others like myself are totally wrong, motivated in part by personal animus or whatever, the bottom line *if 2p2 is important to the PPA's success* is that you need to work on addressing those long term criticisms so that we have an internal unity, and a lack of conflicted or tainted interests that can be used against our cause by our foes.
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:38 PM
NewGuy NewGuy is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

Cliff Notes:

PPA has some problems
Mason wants TE to identify that he is affiliated with PPA
No one offers any logical reasons why a custom title is insufficient (including Mason and BluffThis)
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  #27  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:43 PM
DeadMoneyDad DeadMoneyDad is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

[ QUOTE ]
I hope the Engineer doesn't get hung up on this and even if he disagrees with the demand, views it as worth complying with in order to help continue advance the work of the PPA as he has so ably done in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.



[ QUOTE ]
Now I have something to say to the rest of you professing outrage. You are the ones who by your refusal to take seriously important problems with the PPA (which admittedly are getting better though after two years of misteps and failure) who are hurting the cause we have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who really is "we."

You seem to understand that 2+2 has the right of ownership of this forum, but the people who created the PPA do not have the same?

To a very large degree there have been and are problems and an attitude of "keeping the children" in the dark and spoon feding them platitudes.

But at some point we are all going to have to trust at some point! The forces that "control" the PPA are going to have to trust the general poker community to step up when asked. The general poker community is going to have to push the PPA for concrete meaningful actions to be followed. The PPA is also going to have to do a better job explaining and motivating the general community to action.

In the end realistically it is the "forces" that control the PPA if for neferious ends who risk the most, this includes 2+2 concerns and its motives. Because in the end the membership will "control" the PPA.

Fighting for "control" now because the PPA might be useful "controling" in the future is a loosing game. If it is really worth controling it will be uncontrolable.

This fight now is both worthless but potentially ends this game in Safe and Secure's favor.

I'm pretty sure the IGC, the PPA, 2+2 LLC, and the general poker community do not want that but that is where we are going.


D$D
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  #28  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:47 PM
Berge20 Berge20 is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

Welcome back Bluff. You held out longer than I'd have guessed.

As most have already seen, Engineer will receive a fine yellow colored name and he will be identified as a PPA board member in his title.

I hope this ends up being satisfactory to everyone and TE himself.

The drama bomb over the past twelve, twenty-four hours can hopefully put behind us and we can refocus on the matter at hand. Mason is welcome to comment as he wishes regarding the ban and/or the process, so we'll leave this open for the weekend in case there are any unresolved matters.
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  #29  
Old 11-10-2007, 08:49 PM
ScoobyDooo ScoobyDooo is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

mason puts me on life tilt
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  #30  
Old 11-10-2007, 09:11 PM
JPFisher55 JPFisher55 is offline
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Default Re: The Engineer is yellow...

I agree that TE's solution is an adequate disclosure of his relationship with the PPA. TE feels that the signature at the end of each post equates all his posts with an official position or statement of the PPA. I can understand how he does not wish to start each post with a disclaimer that the post is not an official statement of the PPA.
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