Liberty Dollar office raided

[Bedreviter]

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There are plenty of moderate libertarians. The thing is that they tend to either vote the lesser of two evils or throw up their hands in disgust and ignore politics altogether. It's rare to see more moderate types highly vocal about ANY political view, but it's especially true when those views aren't mainstream.

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I used to call myelf a libertarian, that was when I ued to think that libertarianism was : let people do whatever they want unless they harm other people.

My understanding of libertarianism never meant that you had to break up the state, the issue of the government having a monopoly of issuing currency or haing a monopoly of using violence (police) has never been something I had problem with.

I am in favor of a small government, but that government should have total monoploly in using force to enforce the laws inside that society. I am basically in favor of letting people do whatever they want to as long as it is not intruding anyones rights, but I do favor a government that has monopoly in issuing currency.

I believe in a structured society, with an elected government that has an agency that have a monopoly to use violence when needed. I think that individuals should be able to do whatever they want to as long as it doesnt harm other people, but I do believe that can be achieved within a set system and powerful (when needed) government, and not that a near total abolishment of government is the way to go.

I believe in a government that has certain rights, that includes the right to make currency, imprison people, enforce the laws that the people has mad and such.

I always used to believe I was a libertarian until I came to the the politics forum on 2+2, now Im more of a statist compared to the rest of the people... There goes my will to change the system =)

[Bedreviter]

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If I walk into a bank, hand the teller a note, and she gives me a bag full of money, would you say that no force was used? Would you say the money is now mine fair and square, she voluntarily gave it to me?

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

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You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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Not morallydistinct, but distinct in the way that the system supported by the people beleive that an agency should be able to use force to enforce the laws of the system.

Are you opposed to democracy? Think that the system approved by the vast majority of the citizens of the US shuld not be in place? Has there ever been any leading politician in the US (from 1700-till now) that has agreed with your sentiment?

Think it is smart to make assumptions based on feelings that you and hardly anyone else share, and ignore what 95% of other people feel?

[DblBarrelJ]

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

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You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

[DblBarrelJ]

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You can have laws without government.

You can have agencies without government.

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Yeah, I´m gonna tap my shoes and wish to get home to Kansas. I used to be libertarian, but now Im ashamed when I see what kind of lunatics who really make out the libertarian people.

I honestly admire Ron Paul on some of hes points, but hes following scares me more than the Waco-crowd

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He's not a libertarian, he's an anarchist. I'm a libertarian.

[Kaj]

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I honestly admire Ron Paul on some of hes points, but hes following scares me more than the Waco-crowd

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What was so scary about the Waco crowd? There's nothing really frightening about people living together on their own private land holding their own beliefs and otherwise being perfectly good neighbors.

And what is so scary about RP followers?

[tomdemaine]

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

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You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

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No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force.

[DblBarrelJ]

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


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I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

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No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force.

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

[tomdemaine]

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Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

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No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force.

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Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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I obviously agree with the last point though I don't think anybody did. You can hide behind "i was told to" when you commit an evil act. I'm not necessarily saying what the agents did was an evil act but if it was. "only doing my job" isn't an acceptable excuse.

[DblBarrelJ]

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[ QUOTE ]

Do you think that civilians and law enforcement should be equal when it comes to legally using force or threat of force?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're [censored] right I do. All men are created equal. Government agents are not some morally distinct class, with special dispensation to do things that are immoral for commoners.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, with all of my heart. The reason we're arguing here is that he disagrees with the basis for the raid, so therefore it's "immoral". I've come into contact with child molesters who certainly felt no moral issues arose from their behavior, and that it was just a harmless activity on their part.

Remember, if we don't enforce what you don't like because you think it's immoral, someone somewhere doesn't think raping your six year old daughter is immoral. Either both laws can be enforced, or neither.

[/ QUOTE ]

No because that guy is initiating force. There's an objective standard it's not just either both or neither that's nonsense. You draw the line at the initiation of force.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your error here is in assuming I think Liberty Dollar did anything wrong. I don't. However, I also do believe that if the FBI feels the need to investigate the actions of the Liberty Dollar people, the field agents who served the search warrants aren't "evil", they're merely doing their jobs. Anyone who can consider serving search warrants even close to equal to Nazi's killing people needs a head exam.

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I obviously agree with the last point though I don't think anybody did. You can hide behind "i was told to" when you commit an evil act. I'm not necessarily saying what the agents did was an evil act but if it was. "only doing my job" isn't an acceptable excuse.

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Well, there are shades of gray here. I think "evil" is a bit of a loaded word. I would refer to the agents who actually requested the search warrant as overzealous, but not "evil".

I still don't think the serving agents did anything wrong.

Edited to add:

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I obviously agree with the last point though I don't think anybody did.

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Boro thinks that. link

I was just adding that so you would know what I'm dealing with here. There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis!

[ElliotR]

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There are people here who actually believe police action of any kind = ZOMG! Nazis!

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Indeed,where their reasoning leads to is the conclusion that the Liberty Dollar folks would have been :morally" justified in using force -- including deadly force -- against the agents.