Did I blow this??? 5-10 live, Wynn - Page 3

Chris Daddy Cool · #21 08-31-2006, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
once he shows his cards, he will fold, whether he knows it yet or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

he knew it.

luckychewy · #22 08-31-2006, 09:23 PM

i like leading sets just as much as the next guy...but more so in raised pots or 3-bet pots. in 4-bet pots when you are 99% sure the guy has a big pair which you will get a bet from juts check and let him hang himself, usually c/r ai will work here because some ppl feel commited after making the c-bet, and if not u still get that $ anyways. i don't exactly hate the way you played it but it shoulda been crystal clear he was going to bet on the flop.

Post-Oak · #23 08-31-2006, 10:02 PM

Judging by the responses, it seems I did indeed blow it (pretty badly).

But what would you normally do here with KK or A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I would lead the flop in both cases, and that's why I led here.

I am not arguing that the lead bet was correct. It is possible that you should check with JJ and lead with KK. In most instances you wouldn't want to be "readable" through betting patterns, but in this instance I probably could have checked and easily won a big pot.

But again, wouldn't you lead with KK? How about A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

Post-Oak · #24 08-31-2006, 10:09 PM

I should also mention that I don't think I really gave off a tell.

What happened was, during the next hand he said "I want my cards back. I changed my mind. I call. You didn't have it". He was really regretting laying it down.

I said, "Nah, I had top set. Good fold. You shouldn't have shown your cards with action to follow though".

At this point, his demeanor totally changed. He became really happy, hinted he spotted a tell, and also would not admit that showing his cards there was bad. He said he could still have pushed all-in.

I tried to explain that showing his cards would make my decision to call or fold really easy. He wasn't having it though, and no one could convince him he should not have opened his cards unless he was definitely folding.

Also, people I had been at the table with the whole time had thought he made a terrible fold.

RERAISE5823 · #25 08-31-2006, 10:29 PM

I haven't read all the responses, so I hope I'm not repeating anyone here.

I think you should check/call this flop. Live poker is far more about laydowns than online poker. Do you see this fold online at 5/10 or 10/20 NL? No, not often, and only from the very best players. In live poker, however, folding in spots like this is not uncommon. Tight, sure, but not unheard of. I'm a loose player, but I've folded AA to one bet in live play more than a handful of times. So yes, you blew it.

One other bit of advice I'd give is a reverse physical tell. It seems stupid, but a very wise, winning player told me this once and I've used it several times to induce a call. All you do is, when he's asking you questions, don't look at him, but swallow lightly and clench your jaw slightly when you know he's looking. Then resume your stone face. They often read it wrong.

Blizzardbaum · #26 08-31-2006, 10:37 PM

Do you have any reason to think he wouldn't bet the flop if checked to?

The seems like such an optimal spot for a c/r.

Post-Oak · #27 09-01-2006, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any reason to think he wouldn't bet the flop if checked to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, he would probably always bet here, which is why I blew it.

[ QUOTE ]

The seems like such an optimal spot for a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that a c/r would give away the strength of my hand. I didnt't think he could fold to one bet. Of course, it turns out this was all wrong.

Thanks for all of the responses. I don't play live much, and I think I learned something from this hand, as well as from the advice I have received here.

CamelZoo · #28 09-01-2006, 02:41 AM

good thread

TxRedMan · #29 09-01-2006, 03:02 AM

Ugh. Terrible.

You know he has an overpair. You know he'll bet this flop for you, and you know only someone wanting to get raised or a total tool bets into him on this flop. Some tourist with AJ or someone like you with JJ.

Yes, you blew it, but it was coming an ace anyways, so even though you were way +EV on the flop and lost a lot of 2+2 bucks, you saved yourself some real money.

Post-Oak · #30 09-01-2006, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. Terrible.

You know he has an overpair. You know he'll bet this flop for you,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are all in agreement so far (I have seen the light).

[ QUOTE ]

and you know only someone wanting to get raised or a total tool bets into him on this flop. Some tourist with AJ or someone like you with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you had KK? You always check-call here? Or check fold?

This is why I really didn't think he could get away from one bet. I mean, I bet $600 into a $875 pot, it's not like I pushed.

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, you blew it, but it was coming an ace anyways, so even though you were way +EV on the flop and lost a lot of 2+2 bucks, you saved yourself some real money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with all of this too.

I am just wondering what people would do with KK here.