"Un-mucking" a mucked hand

[WoodPaneling]

I was at Foxwoods the other night and a situation came up that I think was extremely questionable, was wondering how you guys would feel about it.

There was a 4 spade board, including the 4, 5, 6, and 8 of spades. Two older ladies went to showdown, one of them flipped some high spade, and the other showed the table her 7 of spades, made a :/ face, and mucked face down, obviously thinking she only had a 7 high flush. Dealer swept her cards into the muck and actually put the muck pile onto the deck and started squeezing the cards into a clean formation.

Someone decided that NOW they'd speak up and yells out "7 spades, she had a straight flush!" and the dealer grabs what seems to be a totally random card from the deck without looking and miraculously tables the 7 of spades. She then pushes the pot to the woman who mucked it, while the woman who showed the high spade just stared at the floor (as in the ground) shaking her head and looking absolutely crushed.

First off, she mucked her hand. Shouldn't it be dead the second it touches the muck, unless swept into the muck by dealer error? Second off, it wasn't even clearly identifiable in the muck, I have no idea how the dealer managed to table that card. And also, don't you have to show both cards to win a pot at a showdown? I believe she flashed her other hole card prior to mucking but it wasn't involved at all when the 7s came out. This just seems really ridiculous to me and I think the woman who didn't muck should have gotten the pot.

[RR]

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First off, she mucked her hand. Shouldn't it be dead the second it touches the muck, unless swept into the muck by dealer error?

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no



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Second off, it wasn't even clearly identifiable in the muck,

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It looks like it was since the dealer knew where it was.

The dealer should not be doing this without a floor there. From the description it sounds like she might not have made a claim for the pot, but I know people often tell these stories in a way that advances the decision they want.

[DeuceKicker]

Ridiculous. Had she tossed her cards down, realized on her own that she had the winner and quickly grabbed them back, she would have a claim on the pot. As described, there are a number of reasons why she doesn't.

[WoodPaneling]

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The dealer should not be doing this without a floor there. From the description it sounds like she might not have made a claim for the pot, but I know people often tell these stories in a way that advances the decision they want.

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I agree on the floor thing. I'm not slanting this at all to "advance" the responses I want, I'm retelling this as accurately as I can. She never made a claim to the pot, she never said a word. She mucks, dealer collects muck, someone not involved in the hand speaks up, pot gets pushed to her once the 7 gets tabled (the dealer probably had the 7 "bookmarked" with her finger knowing the lady messed up, that would explain how she pulled it out like that). She was pretty sheepish about it.

Care to elaborate on the mucked hands are not automatically dead point? What are the exceptions to this?

[SellingtheDrama]

I do believe there is a rule that if a hand is clearly shown and is the winner, all reasonable effort should be made to award that player the pot.

[RR]

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Care to elaborate on the mucked hands are not automatically dead point? What are the exceptions to this?


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Anytime they are retrievable. Hands don't become "dead" at the showdown. If someone's cards are still there they can turn them up and show them. I think hands being dead for touching the muck is possibly the biggest myth in poker.

[psandman]

So what you are saying is that both cards were shown, the player actually had the straight flush and her opponent didn't complain, but you object?

[PokerDealerSTL]

I don't know how you can take this specific hand out of the muck because you don't know what the other card is, you still have to have a full two card hand to be a live hand.

Also, this breaks the one player to a hand rule in a big way because another player is the one that spoke up about the lady being the winner of the pot. It says she just flashes a card, which is different than tabeling the hand then getting the cards mucked accidentally. That would be no different than a player looking at his hand in omaha h/l, not knowing he has a low, and another player saying something like... oh you have a eighty-five low then the player tabeling the hand for half the pot.

This should probably be a dead hand every time.

[KipBond]

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I think hands being dead for touching the muck is possibly the biggest myth in poker.

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Robert's Rule
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2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

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But, in this case, it seems like this rule applies more:

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5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

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The OP doesn't say the cards were thrown into the muck. It seems to me that she folded her hand, and then the dealer mucked the cards. A player not in the hand asked to see the cards. Hand sure seems to be dead now.

[AngusThermopyle]

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But, in this case, it seems like this rule applies more:

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5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

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The OP doesn't say the cards were thrown into the muck. It seems to me that she folded her hand, and then the dealer mucked the cards. A player not in the hand asked to see the cards. Hand sure seems to be dead now.

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Someone decided that NOW they'd speak up and yells out "7 spades, she had a straight flush!"

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I think you are really stretching it to say this is a case of IWTSTH.

Wonder what the OP means by "shows". Flashes one card? Tables both cards but then picks up and tosses face down?