Am I Spewing in the river?

jjshabado · #1 09-10-2006, 03:34 PM

I don't feel like I've been playing that well lately. So I thought I'd get some opinions on a few hands.

Hand 1:
Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 calls, 4 folds, 4 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (1.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

I've been involved previously with MP2 in at least two hands where he called me down with a very weak hand. I checked the flop because I knew I'd get called no matter what, and the pot isn't big enough to try and bluff. On the turn I figured I had the best hand, and if not I had outs. Should I have done something else?

On the river I'm not sure if I like my check/call. Should I have bet this and folded to a reraise, was the check/call right?

Hand 2:
Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.75BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.75BB

Here, I only called the flop obviously planning for the checkraise on the turn. I'd been getting played back at a lot at the table so I felt it wasn't that likely that the turn would get checked through. That obviously didn't work out. For the record I almost always 3-bet on the flop and bet on the turn.

My real question is, is this a good bet/call on the river. I suspect the answer is no. I'm thinking it should have been a check/call. Opinions?

Hand 3:
Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises, 7 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB

No real reads here. I don't dislike my flop/turn play, although if you think I should dislike it, I welcome criticism. The river check/call seems super weak, but if I'm UTG I'm betting on the river with any two cards since it just seems so weak to bet preflop/flop/turn then give up. (Perhaps that is more spewage for me?).

Xhad · #2 09-10-2006, 03:36 PM

Bet flop hand 1

Hand 2 you played too passive on the flop/turn, and as played you should fold the river

Hand 3 fold river

JussiUt · #3 09-10-2006, 04:18 PM

Hand 1: I'd bet the flop but checking is not a bad play. I like the turn bet. Do you think the villain is capable of bluffing at the river? If so, call. He doesn't have a queen so he only beats you with an eight so I like this call, I think you're probably ahead enough against a random opponent.

Hand 2: You are right that you should've 3-bet the flop. I sometimes too just call and go for the check-raise but now when the third flush card came I'd just lead. It's easily checked through. And you're right again, check-call in the river would've been better.

Hand 3: I hate these kind of hands. You continuation bet the flop and turn and then at the river you have to decide whether to fire another bullet. The villain folds only if he was on a flush draw so...if you decide to check, then fold if he bets. Absolutely.

Sushiglutton · #4 09-10-2006, 05:59 PM

Hand #1: I prefer a bet/fold line on the river against this passive player. Think u will be a bigger dog if he bets than if he calls.

Hand #2: If u were feeling the other players were being very aggro against u I prefer c/c the river. Otherwise b/f is fine.

Hand #3: This is ok. U beat fd, AT.

Edit: I think I change my vote to c/f in hand #3. U beat too few hands given the pot odds.

Xhad · #5 09-10-2006, 06:15 PM

Hand 1 checking the flop (or turn) is awful. It's even more awful if he's a loose-passive that's going to peel with any two cards because either you have more FE on the turn in a bigger pot, or he's going to call the turn with a hand with something like 3-5 outs. Betting the river also sucks, your hand is exactly strong enough to beat "nothing" hands but will only ever make money from 3x, 44, and 22, and possibly Ax. And obviously he will never fold an 8 or a Q. It's between c/c and c/f depending on how much he bluffs, if ever.

Sushiglutton · #6 09-10-2006, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 checking the flop (or turn) is awful. It's even more awful if he's a loose-passive that's going to peel with any two cards because either you have more FE on the turn in a bigger pot, or he's going to call the turn with a hand with something like 3-5 outs. Betting the river also sucks, your hand is exactly strong enough to beat "nothing" hands but will only ever make money from 3x, 44, and 22, and possibly Ax. And obviously he will never fold an 8 or a Q. It's between c/c and c/f depending on how much he bluffs, if ever.

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Agree with the flop/turn analysis. On the river I think we are good often. Why did he check flop with a Q/8? As I understood it he calls with weak hands like A-high, any pair, maybe even K-high? Sure, we beat only very weak hands, but if he calls with them we have to valuebet aggressive.

jjshabado · #7 09-10-2006, 06:31 PM

Ok, thanks for the comments everybody. In hand 1, the guy called down a lot, but he didn't seem to play awful preflop hands. I think its a fair bit more likely that he has an A, Q, or pocket pair than not having one of those. Meaning, that even with my nut flush draw I don't think I'm a favorite to win this hand. So if he's very likely to call me, and I'm likely to be a dog right now, I don't think I should bet into him.

The turn pairing my 5 now puts me ahead of all the possible A high hands that he has, which pushed it from a check to a bet.

I realize that my initial post implied he played crap hands, but I don't think that was the case.

jjshabado · #8 09-10-2006, 06:37 PM

Oh here are the results.

Hand 1: He had AQ. Hands like this drive me nuts. I want to beat the guy for playing his hand so badly and yet I'm thankful that he did and didn't make me pay for my flush draw.

Hand 2: He had 77 with the 7 of spades. The flop call/turn check very likely cost me this pot. Live and learn I guess.

Hand 3: He had A9 of diamonds. So I think we both played it right except I think I should have folded the river.

Xhad · #9 09-11-2006, 01:18 AM

Sushi: To be honest I'm mostly talking about the cases where we bet the flop/turn because we're clearly supposed to. But either way there's just not a lot he can have that's worse and pays off. Since we're such an underdog to win against his legitimate hands, I'm fine with just letting it check through. If we had A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and paired the nine I'd be more inclined to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, thanks for the comments everybody. In hand 1, the guy called down a lot, but he didn't seem to play awful preflop hands. I think its a fair bit more likely that he has an A, Q, or pocket pair than not having one of those. Meaning, that even with my nut flush draw I don't think I'm a favorite to win this hand. So if he's very likely to call me, and I'm likely to be a dog right now, I don't think I should bet into him.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's that weak-tight you should still bet this raggy flop, but possibly with the intention of check/calling the turn and c/f the river UI.