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#41
09-15-2007, 09:25 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. [/ QUOTE ] We're in position, so we can't c/r a turn. I'm curious tho, if you're going to get it on the turn, why wouldn't you just do so on the flop? 
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#42
09-15-2007, 09:27 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. [/ QUOTE ] We're in position, so we can't c/r a turn. I'm curious tho, if you're going to get it on the turn, why wouldn't you just do so on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] To let him keep betting worse/bluffing.
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#43
09-15-2007, 09:31 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. [/ QUOTE ] We're in position, so we can't c/r a turn. I'm curious tho, if you're going to get it on the turn, why wouldn't you just do so on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] To let him keep betting worse/bluffing. [/ QUOTE ] That was the quickest response to a reply in the history of posting. So, going back to the example at hand. He's in the sb. I bet $25, he c/res to $90, and I call. Let's say the turn is a 3 completing the rainbow. A. He'll bet the turn after I've called his huge raise with something like 77, JJ or whatever (or c/c a big bet from me) B. Calls my reraise on the flop. You're saying A is more likely than B?
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#44
09-15-2007, 09:55 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. [/ QUOTE ] We're in position, so we can't c/r a turn. I'm curious tho, if you're going to get it on the turn, why wouldn't you just do so on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] To let him keep betting worse/bluffing. [/ QUOTE ] That was the quickest response to a reply in the history of posting. So, going back to the example at hand. He's in the sb. I bet $25, he c/res to $90, and I call. Let's say the turn is a 3 completing the rainbow. A. He'll bet the turn after I've called his huge raise with something like 77, JJ or whatever (or c/c a big bet from me) B. Calls my reraise on the flop. You're saying A is more likely than B? [/ QUOTE ] yea...or at least equally likely imo
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#45
09-15-2007, 10:01 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. [/ QUOTE ] We're in position, so we can't c/r a turn. I'm curious tho, if you're going to get it on the turn, why wouldn't you just do so on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] To let him keep betting worse/bluffing. [/ QUOTE ] That was the quickest response to a reply in the history of posting. So, going back to the example at hand. He's in the sb. I bet $25, he c/res to $90, and I call. Let's say the turn is a 3 completing the rainbow. A. He'll bet the turn after I've called his huge raise with something like 77, JJ or whatever (or c/c a big bet from me) B. Calls my reraise on the flop. You're saying A is more likely than B? [/ QUOTE ] yea...or at least equally likely imo [/ QUOTE ] If its equally likely you should do B. I think A is much more likely than B
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#46
09-15-2007, 11:00 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. [/ QUOTE ] We're in position, so we can't c/r a turn. I'm curious tho, if you're going to get it on the turn, why wouldn't you just do so on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] To let him keep betting worse/bluffing. [/ QUOTE ] That was the quickest response to a reply in the history of posting. So, going back to the example at hand. He's in the sb. I bet $25, he c/res to $90, and I call. Let's say the turn is a 3 completing the rainbow. A. He'll bet the turn after I've called his huge raise with something like 77, JJ or whatever (or c/c a big bet from me) B. Calls my reraise on the flop. You're saying A is more likely than B? [/ QUOTE ] yea...or at least equally likely imo [/ QUOTE ] If its equally likely you should do B. I think A is much more likely than B [/ QUOTE ] I felt the same way.
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#47
09-17-2007, 12:55 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I think checking the flop is fine - at least against the players I play against (i.e. - could VERY easily have a nine, and will bluff later streets or pay off with worse hands). I do see what some of you are saying that if the blinds are only calling pf raises with pocket pairs in these games then betting the flop makes sense. However, a) will these same players actually get all-in on this flop with 88 or TT? and b) if you routinely chose to not gun it out on a paired-mid-card spr 11 flop with an overpair I don't think you'd lose as much value as y'all are talking about, and the upside can be pretty big (getting value later in the hand, masking your range, picking off bluffs, not going broke to a 9, etc.).
QTip, you did perhaps play it a little more carefully than you needed to on the turn and river. You might've raised the turn (either with the intention of folding to a 3-bet or getting it in, depending on villain), or value bet the river (definitely with the intention of folding to a checkraise).
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#48
09-17-2007, 01:26 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Interesting thread. I am coming into this one a little late .
I really agree with QTip here though. I don't mind this flop check one bit. Against tight-aggressive players on paired boards you have to be a bit cautious with your c-bets. Since their range is heavily weighted towards PP's you tend to not get as many folds on these types of flops. I think it is important to consider the type of mistakes that you and him will make in this hand. His mistake would be making some incorrect calls. Your mistake would be folding the best hand or getting AI with a worse one. Of course, this is always a big mistake but in situations like this it is what the hand boils down to. You want to encourage him to make big mistakes while at the same time avoiding making big one yourself. I think a flop check best achieves that goal. If you have a read that he will get AI with hands like QQ-TT(which probably would have 3-bet preflop) then it is fine to go ahead and plan on getting it AI. However, I think this would be the exception to the rule. The same thing goes if you think he will c/r the flop and bet the turn with a worse PP but in that case I think pushing is bad because he will likely keep betting worse hands on the river where he may not call a push. He likely only has 2 outs in that case so you aren't worried about the free card anyways. In summary, I would bet this flop if I think this guy will take a c/r-bet-bet line and I will see a worse PP. Otherwise, I don't see a good reason to bet the flop against a player with this description.
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#49
09-17-2007, 02:59 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
[ QUOTE ]
both players played bad? [/ QUOTE ] I dont always think its a bad idea to check the flop behind if your opponent is somewhat nitty and will just instafold the flop 90% of the time. but if he didn't know his opponent both played pretty bad
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#50
09-17-2007, 03:24 PM
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
QTip, I don't think you played this hand optimally. Your flop like is OK as a variation on your usual play--not something you should be doing very often, though, obviously. Maybe 10-20% of the time? Your objective for this hand should be to get as much money into the pot as possible. A 15/12 guy is going to have a pocket pair here sooo often; you are very rarely behind.
Turn is meh. I guess it depends somewhat on your image--I usually have an aggro enough image that I can raise the turn for value and villain may still convince himself to call with a medium PP. If you think villain is going to fold to your raise most of the time, I guess flatting the turn is fine. River should be a bet for value. Villain isn't going to call an ace there too often, but he sometimes talks himself into a hero call. It also balances the times when you need to bluff an ace coming. And, with the way this hand played out, if you get checkraised here, it should be a pretty easy fold. Even if your opponent isn't calling all that often on the river, you are missing value by checking behind.
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