The Brick is Back - Razz strategy

[Praxising]

I'm still pretty confused on the convention for calling the 4th street brick. Just exactly what makes the pot big enough?

For instance: you and one opponent completed? Or if it's only completed do there have to be more opponents? Or does "raised pot" mean a raise of the completion?

My problem: it's like pulling teeth to get a lot of micro players to put money into the pot. If I complete - they call. If I limp hoping someone will complete so I can raise, they just limp.

So how much exactly do I have to get in there to make sure I see fifth?

[RustyBrooks]

Heads up I want there to be a completion and a raise, which would make 4sb in the pot plus the antes which is usually nearly 2sb on FTP (full table), so when he bets, I am getting 7:1 to call. If there are two opponents who caught good and I bricked... well I play it by ear. I usually fold if I think I'll get stuck in the middle.

Don't forget: pumping the pot also makes it correct for your opponent to peel when he bricks 4th. This is great against opponents who will fold getting like 10:1 but it sucks if it means you won't be able to knock them out of the pot. It's sometimes correct, if you're the last person in, to just call a completion and keep the pot small.

Learn to love folding.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Heads up I want there to be a completion and a raise, which would make 4sb in the pot plus the antes which is usually nearly 2sb on FTP (full table), so when he bets, I am getting 7:1 to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait. I'm already confused.

OK, I did this on the simulator before, prety much any decent starting hand against any other one, if you brick 4th you are a 2 to 1 dog.

So, if I am putting one SB into fourth, and the guy who caught good will put one SB into 4th, then I only need one BB already in the pot to give me 3 to one on my one SB. So, any called completion plus the antes, justifies calling 4th. (Actually, four limpers would, but that would be stupid.)

Technically.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm math-blind, so explain like to a 10 year old why this math is wrong. Please. Thanks...

[adanthar]

because when you both catch bad continuing really sucks, and when you both catch good, you're locked into the hand on sixth as well. reverse implied odds.

the only time you "want to" continue on fifth (as opposed to having pot odds to do it) is when you catch good/he visibly catches bad, and that is not nearly a 2:1 proposition.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
because when you both catch bad continuing really sucks, and when you both catch good, you're locked into the hand on sixth as well. reverse implied odds.

the only time you "want to" continue on fifth (as opposed to having pot odds to do it) is when you catch good/he visibly catches bad, and that is not nearly a 2:1 proposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't explain this right. All the books say raise 3rd so you can call a brick on 4th. I've been folding when there are only completion bets when HU because I thought there had to be another raise, not just a completion. Someone said this is wrong, it can just be the completion bets and you have the odds to call a brick HU.

So, what's enough? Rusty seems to want 2 BB in there. At least. I think. What's the math rule of thumb?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone said this is wrong, it can just be the completion bets and you have the odds to call a brick HU.

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that someone is incorrect

[RustyBrooks]

Equity does NOT work that way. If you have a 25% chance of winning via the simulator, that is at *showdown* and how many bets will you have to put in until you get there? Since there is likely to be a bet on 4th and 5th, and even 6th, your actual effective odds get closer to like 3:2 or at best 2:1.

So the real question to me is, what are your odds of getting even by 5th? Approximately 4:1 against (depends on the situation of course, how bad your brick is, how good his card is, how good your 3 card hand is, how many dead cards there are, etc, etc). But, when you get to even, you'll only win half the time, so I want much better than 4:1 pot odds, more like 8:1. Even that isn't great since I'm only pot-even-money to come out even money, but add to it the chance that he has a brick in the hole (action/player dependent), or has paired 4th, and 8:1 seems about right to me heads up.

I'll call more liberally on 4th if my chances of coming out *ahead* on fifth exist as well as a good chance of getting even. So when I have like A23K vs xx78, a 4, 5 or 6 will actually pull me ahead [Edit: unless he also draws a low card. So those outs are partial, valued at, say, about 2/3). Compared ot A82T vs xx56 where the best I can hope to do is come out only slightly behind.

I call a *little* more liberally against folks who I know will call with any 2 down on 3rd hoping I brick.

As a summary, you can almost NEVER compare your simulated equity vs the current pot odds unless there is only one more card to come, because you will probably have to face more bets. If you are 2 streets from showdown, like on 5th, then you can figure out some effective odds ranges, like:

The pot is currently 8bb, he just bet, and he'll bet 6th and I fold if I don't improve, but I think he'll call a bet on the end if I do improve.
- when I improve: I put in 3bb to win 8bb+3bb = 11:3 = a little under 4:1
- when I don't improve: I'm putting in 2bb into a pot that'll be 8bb+2bb = 5:1
4:1 and 5:1 look a lot more sobering when you're calling on a long shot than the immediate oddsd of 8:1, eh?

Effective odds are hard to use on really early streets because the tree of possibilities in front of you is very large and it's hard to estimate how often he'll bet, whether you'll end up raising, if he might fold 6th, etc, etc. Too many assumptions.

I do wish Sklansky had given a little more... concrete advice in SOR.

But remember, if in doubt, fold 4th.

[Praxising]

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that someone is incorrect

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There ya go! An answer even I can understand. Thanks. Now to Prof Rusty....

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
So the real question to me is, what are your odds of getting even by 5th? Approximately 4:1 against (depends on the situation of course, how bad your brick is, how good his card is, how good your 3 card hand is, how many dead cards there are, etc, etc). But, when you get to even, you'll only win half the time, so I want much better than 4:1 pot odds, more like 8:1. Even that isn't great since I'm only pot-even-money to come out even money, but add to it the chance that he has a brick in the hole (action/player dependent), or has paired 4th, and 8:1 seems about right to me heads up.

I'll call more liberally on 4th if my chances of coming out *ahead* on fifth exist as well as a good chance of getting even. So when I have like A23K vs xx78, a 4, 5 or 6 will actually pull me ahead. Compared ot A82T vs xx56 where the best I can hope to do is come out only slightly behind. ...etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok,thanks. This is my take on it. I fold more since the last discussion, but it's always more a situational decision than a math one. For me, it's starting to have more to do with the cards that have been up, and if I have a real good live hand or a "let's play this rough 7 and see what happens" kind of hand.

I've taken to raising completions as a standard now with all my real good hands, I'm tired of working hard and not getting some kind of pay-off.

As for loving to fold, I actually do. But on third or on 5th. I still hate folding 4th. I do. I just still hate it.

[RustyBrooks]

It is highly situational which is why, I assume, Sklansky didn't say "call if you're getting 6:1" which would be awful advice without knowing the circumstances.