Ray Zee on NL bankroll requirements

[binions]

From the 2+2 archives:

Bankroll for NL
Posted by: Bob
Posted on: Tuesday, 27 March 2001, at 5:38 p.m.

What would be a proper bankroll for playing NL on a regular basis? Just a playing bankroll, not to live from.

TIA

Re: Bankroll for NL
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 28 March 2001, at 1:12 a.m.

probably about 500 times the total of the blinds of the game you play in. thats assuming you tend to buyin for the normal or close to the minimum and the game is not too wild. less if you are a champ and the games are soft and more if you are a marginal winner.

*************
So, a solid winning 5-10 NL player would need 7500 under the assumptions stated.

[VivaHate]

71/2 buy ins wow guess times have changed in six years.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
71/2 buy ins wow guess times have changed in six years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. As Pzhon will tell you, the conventional wisdom of 20 buy ins at NL is very conservative for a solid winning player.

And I will add that 20 buy ins is vastly underbankrolled for the marginal winning player.

[JOHNY CA$H]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
71/2 buy ins wow guess times have changed in six years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. As Pzhon will tell you, the conventional wisdom of 20 buy ins at NL is very conservative for a solid winning player.

And I will add that 20 buy ins is vastly underbankrolled for the marginal winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this until I hit a 20 buy in downswing. Up until this point, in 3 1/2 years of playing full time (30+ hrs/week), the largest downswing I had ever had was 10 buy ins, and this happened once.

Sometimes, rarely but sometimes, you just run siiick.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I hit a 20 buy in downswing. Up until this point, in 3 1/2 years of playing full time (30+ hrs/week), the largest downswing I had ever had was 10 buy ins, and this happened once.

Sometimes, rarely but sometimes, you just run siiick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, sometimes you have 20 buy-in downswings, particularly in tough games. However, did you break even in all of the years of play before that downswing started? A solid winner should have been up over a thousand buy-ins at that point, so you should have been prepared for a 20 buy-in downswing. If you started with 10 buy-ins, that 20 buy-in downswing should not have busted you.

A bankroll is not supposed to be larger than the largest possible downswing. A safe bankroll gives you a low risk of ruin, but part of that comes from saving some of your winnings.

[Ray Zee]

i dont remember but that applies mostly to full ring games that arent crazy wild. it also doesnt mean that you spend all your money on fun and then have to live off that amount of bankroll. and if you lose it you are broke and out out action forever.

ifthose things apply then a greatly larger amount of money is needed.in general a careful player in full games shouldnt get stuck ten buyins. playing six handed on the net thats different. then you will get stuck that much some times.

but as a rule and i still believe it when you get stuck alot, almost always you are doing something wrong or your opponents are keying in well on you. and it isnt because of fluctuations. although it can be.

[JOHNY CA$H]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hit a 20 buy in downswing. Up until this point, in 3 1/2 years of playing full time (30+ hrs/week), the largest downswing I had ever had was 10 buy ins, and this happened once.

Sometimes, rarely but sometimes, you just run siiick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, sometimes you have 20 buy-in downswings, particularly in tough games. However, did you break even in all of the years of play before that downswing started? A solid winner should have been up over a thousand buy-ins at that point, so you should have been prepared for a 20 buy-in downswing. If you started with 10 buy-ins, that 20 buy-in downswing should not have busted you.

A bankroll is not supposed to be larger than the largest possible downswing. A safe bankroll gives you a low risk of ruin, but part of that comes from saving some of your winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was a solid winner up until the start of this swing, and was way over rolled for my limit (100 buy ins or so), so no, didn't come close to wiping me out. Funny thing is though, the games weren't that tough for me- my point was that once in a while you can have a 20 buy in downswing in games you crush.

I understand your point though, and your right. I've just always interpreted your operating bankroll as what you're able to take a hit AND play at the same level AND take out money to live on, as that has been my situation for a while now. This is obviously a much larger figure then the theoretical one Ray Zee is talking about.

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hit a 20 buy in downswing. Up until this point, in 3 1/2 years of playing full time (30+ hrs/week), the largest downswing I had ever had was 10 buy ins, and this happened once.

Sometimes, rarely but sometimes, you just run siiick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, sometimes you have 20 buy-in downswings, particularly in tough games. However, did you break even in all of the years of play before that downswing started? A solid winner should have been up over a thousand buy-ins at that point, so you should have been prepared for a 20 buy-in downswing. If you started with 10 buy-ins, that 20 buy-in downswing should not have busted you.

A bankroll is not supposed to be larger than the largest possible downswing. A safe bankroll gives you a low risk of ruin, but part of that comes from saving some of your winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm wow maybe he moved up at some point?

[VivaHate]

Hey Johnny Ca$h were you playing online or live for 30hrs a week, also fr or six max? Did you move down or just play through it at the same level?

Ray Zee what bankroll would you recommend for 6max on the net playing a low variance taggy style? The normal 20buy ins or do you think you could be safe on less.

[JOHNY CA$H]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Johnny Ca$h were you playing online or live for 30hrs a week, also fr or six max? Did you move down or just play through it at the same level?

Ray Zee what bankroll would you recommend for 6max on the net playing a low variance taggy style? The normal 20buy ins or do you think you could be safe on less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Online, 6 max mostly, with some 8 and 10 peppered in there (generally 4 tbl with 1 or two non-6max). Basically, played 200NL as a clear winner for about a year, moved to 400NL, beat it for a few months, then the streak began. 6 buy-ins were at 400, and the rest were at 200 -I moved to a new site for a bonus and had to play 200 at first due to weekly deposit restrictions, and stayed at this level b/c I was running so bad. Then it was weeks and weeks and weeks of the improbable happening all the time. Only time I ever considered getting a real job in 4 years.