AP infinity plus one - New AP Statement

[Gildwulf]

k truth gets a timeout

plz less flaming/trolling and more focus on the issues at hand

[JFJB]

I wrote this post this summer because I felt that, increasingly, I was coming across players that I felt new my hole cards.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post11377340

The kicker is that I have never played on AP and instead was playing on another site. Now my belief is that the easiest way for cheats to get my hole card information was from my computer and not the server. You become a Poker Enthusiast, download a spreadsheet or a software and boom you are infected in a very Poker specific manner (your own computer sends your hole card information (a view of your screen) to a designated IP) that antivirus software will not detect.

Now this statement for Joe Norton from the KGC :

"......this consultant devised a sophisticated scheme to manipulate internal systems to access third-party computers and accounts to view hole cards of other customers during play without their knowledge.’’

If this belief of mine and statement above is true it also means that cheating could occur no matter what Poker Site one plays at!!! This would mean that the AP incident could be the results of the thieves having found a better way of infecting everyone with/through the AP software.

As I have mentioned before, it may be that the AP story just represents the tip of the Icerberg.

[ikestoys]

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seif deserves all of this until HE comes up with the HH's. I'd bet you large amounts of money that if someone accused Greg Raymer of cheating in a particular hand or session on pokerstars, he'd (or someone else within pokerstars) would come up with the hand IMMEDIATELY. the guy claims to be down a million dollars on AP and can't come up with a HH?

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Last I heard (correct me if I'm wrong), Seif gave his permission to release the HH of the session from AP itself. They were waiting for the other guy's (i forget his name atm) permission to release the master HH for the session (because it showed both cards obv). Given that Seif really is more of a live pro than a internet pro I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't save all the HH into Pokertracker like most of us do and can't provide his side of a session from 2(?) years ago. Hell, all my hand histories from last summer are lost, so even if he did keep track I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a specific session from 2 years ago.

[h11]

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Both sites and Joe Norton state that he owns 100% of the firms. It was very easy for us to determine that. What is apparently difficult for us is - to believe it.

It's not really surprising that we might have doubts, because this is a privately owned firm, and private owners are not required to reveal very much about their affairs. I own a business as a sole proprietor, just as Mr Norton claims he owns these gambling firms. If I sold someone an option to buy my firm, I'm not required to tell you about that, or to tell anyone else. That's just the way it is. Are you really amazed that I don't have to tell you about my business, or that you have no way of knowing if I have given someone a right to buy me out?

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But if that secrecy allowed you to cheat your customers and they find out about it, would you be able to continue your business and maintain that secrecy, or would you have to become more transparent in the future?

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How could they be more transparent about possible hidden ownership? If Mr Norton has in fact sold an option to someone giving that person the right to buy out his interest in AP he can tell us the truth, or he can lie to us, and there is no way for us to know which is the case. We must either believe him, or not. There is nothing he can do to PROVE he is telling the truth about this. There is no device which can make the inside of his head so transparent that we can tell whether he is telling the truth or not. It is possible that he has secretly sold his interest to the Queen of England. As long as neither of them says it's true, we can't rule her out as the real owner.

[pokerstudAA]

The ownership structure is going to be next to impossible to figure out without some sort of confidential document.

As long as we are talking about transparency - who owns Poker Stars? - almost impossible to figure out

[augie_]

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seif deserves all of this until HE comes up with the HH's. I'd bet you large amounts of money that if someone accused Greg Raymer of cheating in a particular hand or session on pokerstars, he'd (or someone else within pokerstars) would come up with the hand IMMEDIATELY. the guy claims to be down a million dollars on AP and can't come up with a HH?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last I heard (correct me if I'm wrong), Seif gave his permission to release the HH of the session from AP itself. They were waiting for the other guy's (i forget his name atm) permission to release the master HH for the session (because it showed both cards obv). Given that Seif really is more of a live pro than a internet pro I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't save all the HH into Pokertracker like most of us do and can't provide his side of a session from 2(?) years ago. Hell, all my hand histories from last summer are lost, so even if he did keep track I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a specific session from 2 years ago.

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not talking about pokertracker. you don't think if seif made two phone calls he could have someone on the line from AP who could find the session everyone's talking about? and have it emailed to him, instantly? you don't think he'd want to spend 30 minutes on the phone with someone in order to clear his name with thousands of poker players?

[ikestoys]

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seif deserves all of this until HE comes up with the HH's. I'd bet you large amounts of money that if someone accused Greg Raymer of cheating in a particular hand or session on pokerstars, he'd (or someone else within pokerstars) would come up with the hand IMMEDIATELY. the guy claims to be down a million dollars on AP and can't come up with a HH?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last I heard (correct me if I'm wrong), Seif gave his permission to release the HH of the session from AP itself. They were waiting for the other guy's (i forget his name atm) permission to release the master HH for the session (because it showed both cards obv). Given that Seif really is more of a live pro than a internet pro I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't save all the HH into Pokertracker like most of us do and can't provide his side of a session from 2(?) years ago. Hell, all my hand histories from last summer are lost, so even if he did keep track I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a specific session from 2 years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

not talking about pokertracker. you don't think if seif made two phone calls he could have someone on the line from AP who could find the session everyone's talking about? and have it emailed to him, instantly? you don't think he'd want to spend 30 minutes on the phone with someone in order to clear his name with thousands of poker players?

[/ QUOTE ]
Last I heard (correct me if I'm wrong), Seif gave his permission to release the HH of the session from AP itself. They were waiting for the other guy's (i forget his name atm) permission to release the master HH for the session (because it showed both cards obv).

[niss]

I think that very well could be a smokescreen, and I agree with Augie. If I was Seif and I was being accused of cheating like this, and given everything that we know now about the "superuser" and Seif's chummy relationship with the cheaters, by now I would have released the HH myself (or come out and said flatly that AP can't give it to me). F the other guy. He started this whole thing by accusing me.

[JFJB]

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The ownership structure is going to be next to impossible to figure out without some sort of confidential document.

As long as we are talking about transparency - who owns Poker Stars? - almost impossible to figure out

[/ QUOTE ]

''Because of rules requiring that Mohawks own all businesses on-reserve, the commission set up Mohawk Internet Technologies to operate the online casino business. MIT operates a server farm on the reserve, and offers space on the servers to online casino operators. MIT collects a monthly fee from the casino operators.''

The above is a quote from this article:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ga...etcasinos.html

This means Joe Norton owns AP because AP needs to be owned by an Indian according to Mohawk rules (i.e. for AP to be able to have their server on the reserve). As I understand it, the ownership by Joe Norton is for Indian rules and Joe charges a fee for this services but is not part of the actual management of AP.

[dealace1]

I suspect the statement "to access 3rd party computers" is in response to hard evidence that the home computer of Scott Tom was involved or perhaps they are referring to their host computers as a 3rd party computer from the point of view of the guilty party.

I would rule out the theory that their software client was changed to relay the hole information elsewhere.