lagging it up

rzk · #1 11-18-2007, 04:30 AM

you have K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the co and decided to 3bet a hj opener. you have a somewhat laggy or lagtaggy image but you haven't done anything outrageous. the hj has been at the table for 20 minutes or so but hasn't done anything unusual.

he caps and you call. the flop comes:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he bets. 10.5 sb in the pot. do you call or fold?

Oink · #2 11-18-2007, 04:39 AM

You have less than 3 outs on average (I guess?) and you are never or rarely winning the pot UI or getting a free card.

I'd say its a pretty easy fold.

I'd guess that the implied odds on hitting a T are negative and maybe around neutral for a K.

Give me a bdfd and I peel without thinking

MitchL · #3 11-18-2007, 05:35 AM

I fold here.

rzk · #4 11-18-2007, 05:41 AM

that's what i expected people would say. this hand is from schneids' first video. he called the flop saying something like "i pretty much have to call".

MitchL · #5 11-18-2007, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
that's what i expected people would say. this hand is from schneid's first video. he called the flop saying something like "i pretty much have to call".

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he say why? Maybe x-post in mid-high with "Schneids video" in the title and he will answer.

Maybe some metagame involved.

rzk · #6 11-18-2007, 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that's what i expected people would say. this hand is from schneid's first video. he called the flop saying something like "i pretty much have to call".

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he say why? Maybe x-post in mid-high with "Schneids video" in the title and he will answer.

Maybe some metagame involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't really explain why, he just said he was getting 10:1 on the peel. i took your advise and made a post in the mid-high forum.

vmacosta · #7 11-18-2007, 06:41 AM

At first I wasn't gonna post it cuz I figured it was just another one of my leaks. But now that I hear that schneids has the same one i'll admit it. i call here against most ppl at 15/30ish limits. It's pretty common for 88/JTs/AJo to cap me here.

mynameisslime · #8 11-18-2007, 11:11 AM

hate that

Romulet · #9 11-18-2007, 11:42 AM

Is the preflop here standard for you guys?

I think I'm too loose and I don't 3 bet here unless the raiser has been caught getting his money in light. Once he caps well you're playing hit to win for me.
I give myself 3 outs here discounting the fact that we can hit and lose or are drawing to runner runner or dead. 3 outs not enough at 10.5-1.
Fold and don't do the PF again.
Surely if you want to put pressure on light here a small pp or hands like 89s are better 3 bet hands but again I don't do it.
My minimum hand for 3 betting here is 66.

thepizzlefosho · #10 11-18-2007, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is the preflop here standard for you guys?

I think I'm too loose and I don't 3 bet here unless the raiser has been caught getting his money in light. Once he caps well you're playing hit to win for me.
I give myself 3 outs here discounting the fact that we can hit and lose or are drawing to runner runner or dead. 3 outs not enough at 10.5-1.
Fold and don't do the PF again.
Surely if you want to put pressure on light here a small pp or hands like 89s are better 3 bet hands but again I don't do it.
My minimum hand for 3 betting here is 66.

[/ QUOTE ]

PF is marginal but certainly not bad if the HJ opener is a LAG or LAGTAG (which most TAGs are really LAGTAG at the stakes that Schneids was playing in that video). If I was playing lower stakes where rake is a big factor (2/4 or lower or even 3/6 on AP) I don't think you need to be making these plays even if the villain is somewhat loose. However at mid-high stakes the rake is less of a factor and KTo probably does pretty well against an aggressive players opening HJ range when you have position and dead money in the pot.

I don't think it is by any means standard, but I certainly don't think it is bad.

I think the flop is close, and really it probably depends on Schneid's assessment of this guys capping range. If it is wide enough that he could give himself 4-5 outs (combo of pairs and backdoor straight) then I think it is a peel especially with implied odds. But if his OOP capping range is fairly tight then you probably should muck it on the flop. If I was uncertain I would probably peel because of implied odds, and also because I don't want to give the image that I give up easy and start having people taking shots at me.