Don't raise AK preflop, ever acceptable?

[KCW12]

[ QUOTE ]
My comments relate to a cash game.

I think LarryLaughs is the only one on this board that understands how to play this relativly weak holding. The rest of you need to get your nose out of the book. ;-) It's situational and the primary situation of concern is the number of people your playing it against and the type of players your likely facing. Raising with it everytime (especially to high blind multiples) shows me you have fear of playing the hand post flop. You don't think you can read or make the correct decision. Sure it's a raise more than it's a limp. If I'm in the cutoff or on the button and it's folded to me, I'm not raising most of the time with calling stations to my left. I want them to hit thier donk ace or K if they have one and think "wow a miracle in the blinds!". Afterwhich I milk them hard as I think I can on flop and push them out on the turn.....more often than not.

In the BB and it's folded around to me I would almost NEVER raise with it. People who do then find themselves adding to thier bluffing frequency. You get this number too high and your just the kind of player I want to face. Nothing better.

If there are 6 players in the pot in front of me, I'm choosing a raise that I estimate gets it down to 3 callers so their calls are best +EV, least risk against my hand. If one of the players is a tough one whom I'm worried about I might raise more either to isolate to him or if that's not possible to encourage him to leave the pot. The basic principle here is this, I'm about 36% to hit but I'm putting in less than 36% of the pot preflop. Against 3 callers I've put in only 25% so the pot is certainly +EV for me and -EV for the rest of them unless one of them has a pair to start.

I hate bluffing with missed flops on AK. I've lost more money with that play. I rarely ever do it. There are lots of hands to bluff with but in general I think it's only a good idea (with missed AK) if the opponents are tight or weak and if it's a semi-bluff. I'd like to see at least a gutter and a runner runner flush possibility and have position to bluff here.

My comments are based on my typical games, I play NL. a little 1-2, a lot of 1-3 and a little 2-5 live. (Note, I'm talking $, not pennys)

I might get softer with this hand at lower stakes and raise a higher pecentage of the time at higher stakes and in general I'm making that adjustment on expected player quality in those games.

Why do so many players build a monster pot with a hand that usually at best is only a 1 pair hand? You want to sit in front of a bunch of donks (calling stations as described above) and put a huge chunk of your stack on the line with essentially a weak hand. Now you hit on the flop, make a pot size bet, 4 or 5 donks call (hey this is looking like the biggest pot of the night!!!! Yahooo!!!) This is how you transfer your chips to the donks and how you come up with all those borish bad beat stories. I don't think AK is a bigpot hand at a full table. I want to play my big pots with 2 pair or better. I'm there for the long haul, to leave with a profit, not to maximize my ROR with (this will really get them going) relatively paltry hands. Think about it, some are suggesting playing AK which is only about 36% to make top pair on the flop all the way to the river against 5 or 6 opponents for a big pot. It's a leak! Use your senses, pick better spots to fleece the donks, you don't have to go nuts with this hand. Play it to hit and make a decent pot. Don't be a pig or soon the donks will have your chips and let me tell you, that's exactly where I want them. I want them to suckout on you because those chips are alot easier to win off the calling stations than they will be to win off you. Is the light on in your head yet? This how a cash game really works and this is how the better players are thinking. The best table ever is one with 2 or 3 bad players with one or two who've vacuumed up all most of the chips in a series of suckouts. The chips are where I want them when I sit down.

There is certainly no short simple answer to most poker questions. In fact, I've certainly left quite a bit out of this one like middle pos play of AK.

All hands are situational, there is no "always" way to play a hand.

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing AK the way you suggest is a great way to get yourself stacked when you hit top pair and get beaten by some junk 2-pair hand that would have folded if you had raised.

[eightballa]

Wow, I disagree with you limpers. Give me your dream situation that is happening when you limp with AK.

See the flop cheaply? This is like chapter 1 of every book you didn't read.

[LarryLaughs]

I have to say here in my defence that I did not say anything about limping AK preflop. I always raise it, most of the time I 3-bet it. The point was what to do in multiway pots on the flop.

[GeeBeeQED]

It's so common that posters on this board stretch what is said to perportions it's not intended to be at. I raise with this hand most of the time. Maybe the post was too long for many to remember that. I do think situations where limpoor limping with AK exist about 10-15% of the time. If it's close I'll often raise with it anyway. However, I want to play this hand after the flop and I want to wing a pot. I don't consider this a grinding hand and I don't consider it a monster pot hand. It's somewhere inbetween. The amount of the raise and the number of likely callers has direct impact on the size of the pot which inturn impacts the size of the flop bet, turn bet and any potential river bet. I'm just saying the hand is situational, it's not a raise every time you get it, just most of the time. Players that routinely limp with big hands are donks, I'd presume there are not too many of those taking the time to read and study poker on this site. ;-)

Dave

[jstill]

goddamnit i hate this thread so much....

raise AK in those loose spots for value, u dont have to c bet 4 way or even 3 way if the flop is a mid coordinated one and u have no piece of it

not raising and then making the Pot to stack ratio very small with AK spells trouble/ no value, a cheap flop is exactly what you DONT want, esp if u are going to play TPTK to the felt after u let joe idiot come in and then chase postflop with good implied odds... and then u complain after its laughable.

so much misinformation in these, its too hard to go through and point out whats retarded about each thing said and rebuttal it... its why I gave up and started posting far far less

[Gonso]

Re-reading the posts in this thread, I generally agree with the posts made by Stringsteen87, Bantam222, Mark1808, El Hombre, Shoota, LarryLaughs, CalPoly, PantsonFire, Tarheeljks, Jailblazers, jstills, WoolyGimp and myself all seem to agree in principle, so there's really no reason for a lot of the frustration.

GeeBee, regarding your posts in particular: there are some points that are correct, and yet other points that reflect a weak-tight perspective (particularly in cash games). In any case, making comments like "only so-and-so here knows how to play AK" and other snide remarks really aren't adding anything and certainly don't defend your arguments. I'm familiar with some of the more regular PT posters in this thread, and have generally found their opinions pretty sound.

Remember that the OP was asking about raising AK preflop. No one said that once you do that you are obligated to bet into a bunch of calling stations when you miss a flop.

[Matt Williams]

People don't lose with AK because they didn't raise pre-flop. They lose with it because they don't know how to play it after the flop. If you play w/ the same people over and over again, they will pick up on your tendencies. It's very simple. If you always raise with it, when you don't raise good players will know you DON'T have it. So if the flop comes 10-J-Q, and they hold top 2 pair, they will know you don't have AK because you didn't raise. That's why if I'm on the button, OCCASIONALLY I will limp in with it. Just to mix up my game.

If you have 500 BB, and you are getting stacked w/ AK because you hit TPTK; I'm sorry, but you do not know how to play AK post flop. You got stacked because you suck at poker, not because you didn't raise pre-flop.

If you are in a weak game and everyone else sucks, then yea always raise with it. But if there are good players at the table with you, you need to mix it up.

[Gonso]

No one said anything about being 500bb deep, nor automatically stacking off if you make TPTK with effective stacks like that.

The part I and other posters disagree with are:

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of times when I don't raise w/ AK. If I'm on the button and 3-6 have limped in, there's nothing wrong w/ seeing the flop cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So if the flop comes 10-J-Q, and they hold top 2 pair, they will know you don't have AK because you didn't raise. That's why if I'm on the button, OCCASIONALLY I will limp in with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The part I'm trying to get here is how you think limping AK after 3-6 limpers is going to get you the kind of value that cutting down the field is going to get you. As is you have position, but you've got a handful of people all going to an unraised pot. You've hidden your AK, but at the same time you have little idea as to what everyone else's range is.

To your second point, you're virtually never flopping the nut straight with AK, and if you flop a draw to the broadway striaght it's going to be a gutshot. Further, how much value is in it for you if you do hit? How many hands can pay you off on a board like QJT? In an unraised pot with that board, anyone not holding K9 is likely to have a least equity against you, say with a set or flush draw or something, which further reduces the value of nut-peddling AK.

And, if it's a suited AK and you make a flush, it's going to be harder to get paid since the best someone else can have is a Q-high flush.

As far as what they do in good games, I don't really play much full ring, but those games don't tend to have 3-6 limpers by the time you get to the button without someone coming in for a raise. The "top two pair" guy in your example is going to go broke on THAT flop with 500bb? I don't think he will, especially if he's supposed to be a good player - even if he does remove AK form your range he's still beat by way too much to stack off.

Now, by raising you do partially define your hand, but this doesn't reduce your range to just AK. You should be popping a number of hands here as well - which will help you in the the deception department you're putting so much emphasis on. No one says you can only 3-bet AK here, hell after several limpers there are quite a few hands decent players can blow up on the button. If people are putting you on a premium hand here, you're range is too tight.

You can limp AK in some scenarios, but I don't see this as being one of them at all. If you're going to forego a pretty profitable play (which raising here is), at least do so in favor of an even more profitable play or some kind of metagame advantage which I'm not really seeing here.

If you're ultimate goal was to be deceptive, hell you could just fold AK everytime you get it. No one would ever expect that... but that's not your ultimate goal.

[Gonso]

In short, what I'm asking is:

Where are you extracting more value by limping AK in your example, as opposed to making the more standard play of raising with it? Assuming standard table conditions with competent players, and not freak 500bb effective stacks or other oddball scenarios.

Second, when you do make TPTK, how much heat are you willing to take with it in an unraised pot? Since you won't get credit for having AK, wouldn't that mean that you're more likley to get action from TPGK hands as well?

Third, what kind of flop are you hoping for (apart from the nut straight)?

[quban00]

always raise...no doubt