3 betting pre vs. raising the flop

[AZplaya]

So just something I've been thinking about/toying with at the tables.

Assume CO is your standard 25/21, with a wide opening range, and who folds to 3 bets pre around 60% of the time.
assume effective stacks of 100BB

Hero is dealt J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $2, Hero raises to $6</font>

I think this is a fairly standard "3 bet light" situation.

Something I've been trying lately:

Again same assumtions as above

Hero is dealt J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $2</font>, Hero call $2, SB folds, BB folds

Pot: ($4.05)
Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

<font color="red">CO bets $3.50, Hero raises to $11</font>

SO over a fairly smallish sample, this move seems to be more profitable for me than the standard "3 bet light" for the following reasons:

1. most tags "fold to 3 bet pre" is in the 55 - 65% range in my experience. Their fold when cbet is raised is usually closer %75, and even higher against players they view as solid.
2. You win a bigger pot.
3. It gives you a chance to stack them when you flop good and they actually have a big pair, or if they decide to play back and you actually have a big hand.
4. If one of the blinds tag along pre its not ideal but you still get to play a hand with alot of potential in position on the flop.

So these are some of the reasons I like this play. Tell me why you hate it/like it less than 3 betting pre.

[AFCBeer]

Trouble is the times TAG does have a hand on the flop and/or he plays back at you, you have lost a bigger pot.

Its always good to mix up your play but perhaps you are forgetting why we 3-bet light. The main reasons are to generate more action on our monsters and also make our opponents make incorrect decisions post flop.

I don't hate the idea, I just think most of the time you are better off with a 3-bet.

[whyzze]

you did this to me yesterday. The board was much more wet though.

the thing about both plays is that people are going to adjust. Its good to have both moves and use them both regularly.

[orange]

bump, i'll add some thoughts tomorrow AZ. pm me if i forget.

[ronitonline]

This isnt bad if you are very confident in your post-flop play. However you will see yourself in just as many sticky situations IMO as "stacking" situations. IMO I like 3betting and taking control so if we do happen to see a flop atleast we have the edge in the hand and helps our marginal flops have more FE.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
you did this to me yesterday. The board was much more wet though.

the thing about both plays is that people are going to adjust. Its good to have both moves and use them both regularly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it a lot too, but usually on wetter flops that are 'tough to continue on'.

the only problem is in a TAG v TAG situation if someone calls IP pre after i raise in LP I will definately be feeling they are calling to take it away on the flop a lot, but that their range includes less big pairs than a 3bet does. I'm not sure the sets counteract that enough but it would be fairly easy to work out a sensible balance to go for.

It's probably true that most people have less tools in their toolbox to adjust to this though, but offhand cbetting less (yes rly!) and shoving lighter on dryish flops seem good. i'm not sure calling and checking turn is great unless the raiser is likely to fire again light.

in terms of doing this purely as a bluff the risk/reward is slightly better with the call/raise line (invest 2.36 to win 1) than 3betting (3:1), but how it works when you mix in the value of these plays with your whole range is anyones guess.

check out the second cts video if you have CR, he talks about shifting from 3betting light to taking it away on the flop, to floating more as villains adjust.

[orange]

AZ,
I think both 3-betting AND bluff raising/raising the flop hold important places in one's game. The problem with ALWAYS bluff raising flops is that some (if not many) flop textures will make it unlikely to rep a great hand. The example board in which you gave is definitely not a bad one to bluff on. You can easily rep a set and most TAG players will fold hands as strong as TT there.

So, there isn't really any easy answer here. (or a definitive answer for that matter). I think you should definitely do both bluffraising as well as 3-betting (light or what have you). You should be playing many hands in position and this includes 3-betting such hands as JTs and the like.

So, yeah, I would incorporate both into my game- why not? It makes you a tougher player to play against and mixing your ranges is a nice tool to have when moving up in stakes.