playing against ratholers

[e_hammer]

pot lays you 3/2

if ratholer range is loose (22+, any ace) then you within +EV to call.

if ratholer is medium range (77+ AT+ KQ+) then you should call with 55+, AJ+ and ATs.

Your call with 33 is certainly not out of line.

Properly playing these guys will actually make them leave your table. I have several SS who seem to leave within 30 minutes of my sitting especially if they are close on either side of me. I absolutely love that, cause even though it is well within their rights to attempt to play the game in any manner they choose, they still seem to be the gnats in the poker world.

Also, i still cannot figure out why if a zillion players request it, that the sites will not at least offer 100bb max buyin games with say a minimum of 50bb buyins so that players who absolutely hate sitting with the real shortstackers can have a game to play in which they prefer as well as the current games offered. Maybe somehow we could get together and get a unified request such as this.

[Moonshine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alright, on a serious note...

I have a real problem with people posting [censored] in this thread like "OK i think IMSAKIDD shoves this range against a button open"...etc.

I think talking about general shortstack strategy is fine. Picking apart a specific short stack's game is very unethical IMO. I recall last year a few posts in HSNL where people started talking strategy against specific players and it caused an uproar.

THe purpose of this forum is to talk general strategy and not create blueprints for picking apart a specific player's game. I know the line is kind of blurry here but please keep that in mind.

Carry on

[/ QUOTE ]

ratholers don't qualify as actual players. pick 'em apart

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think it's fine to take somebody like Curtains, one of the most respected tournament posters on 2+2, and disect his game on a public forum like this because he's eating into your profits?

I'm sorry but that's wrong; get your head out of your ass

And I'm so sick of this "short stacking is unethical" bull [censored]. Yea shortstacking is stupid, yea shortstacking ruins games, but it's no more unethical than you stacking some poor guy who just deposited the last 400 dollars in his bank account online.

We all make a living taking stupid people's money. Give me a [censored] break and get off your high and mighty ground please.

[MDMA]

[ QUOTE ]
but it's no more unethical than you stacking some poor guy who just deposited the last 400 dollars in his bank account online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this comparison is totally clueless.

FWIW, I don't think it's unethical to analyze particular shortstackers games at all; if they are any good at all they don't have "tendencies", it's all just math.

[dardo]

I used to have a bunch of ratholers following me, now they don,t.

I just tightened a LOT calling their pushes depending on their deepness.

Bad shortstacks have a very narrow range for pushing or calling so that,s the only thing you need to make, you can keeping raising your full range they won,t bother until they have a big hand.

Also, some shortstacks adjust to the game flow, and if you have a laggy image will try to profit from your cbets pushing them with anything.

OTOH is you have a tight image they,ll fold almost anything. So you just need to adjust a little to outplay them.

----

Also, I think this is very important, I,m sure SS is psycologically very hard with a tonne of variance as his edge is very slim. So I,m quite sure for most SS it,s just enough to make their edge very small to make them stop doing it, as their variance will skyrocket.

[MDMA]

Stop thinking shortstacking has high variance, it's way less variance than playing fullstacked.

[Moonshine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but it's no more unethical than you stacking some poor guy who just deposited the last 400 dollars in his bank account online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this comparison is totally clueless.

FWIW, I don't think it's unethical to analyze particular shortstackers games at all; if they are any good at all they don't have "tendencies", it's all just math.

[/ QUOTE ]

MDMA,

I respect you and all but there's nothing clueless about my comparison.

The very definition of "unethical" is entirely context dependent upon the system of values one is operating within. So while yes, shortstacking could be considered "unethical" by a community of deep stacked poker players, a large portion of society would consider the afformentioned stacking of said gambling addict to be more unethical.

I myself don't find stacking the poor guy unethical and thus obv dont find ratholing to be unethical, as lame-o as I concede that it is.


Also, saying shortstackers don't have "tendencies" is pretty ignorant. That's akin to saying the best tourney players in the world play based on a mathematical formula that anybody could do. Yea, the 20bb game is extremely devoid in skill compared with full stacked poker but there is more room to play within those 20bbs than a lot of you give credit for.

[MDMA]

No, I said a good shortstacker shouldn't have much in terms of tendencies as all, thats not the same as you saying I said "shortstackers don't have tendencies".

Furthermore, I don't think you get what is unethical about shortstacking; it's not shortstacking itself in essence, it is, as many people have said before, the ratholing part of it. Poker is a game that developed live, and within the context of the game there are ethics concerning leaving the table, taking money off the table and sitting back down.

To compare that with stacking a gambling addict (of which account balance you have no idea of nor do you have any idea who he is, where he comes from and his financial situation) is just ridiculous.

Also I just heard you have gone from fullstacking to shortstacking, which kind of makes you rather biased trying to defend your own behaviour.

[PBJaxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop thinking shortstacking has high variance, it's way less variance than playing fullstacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like everything, it is all relative. Yeah, a SS's variance at 5/10 will be less than mine (with respect to $$), but I assume that a SS's $1k BI game (25/50) will be higher variance with respect to $$ than my $1k BI game (5/10).

If this is incorrect, let me know. BTW, I think this thread is a good thing. The HSNL thread was bad, but discussing how to minimize their edge should help most of the full stack players.

[MDMA]

Variance is only related to expected value.

[jfish]

[ QUOTE ]
Variance is only related to expected value.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeeeep.