PNL SPR Charts - is it me or the charts that are wrong?

[Wada]

Ok I am a limit player and converting to and learning NL so bare with me please on this math stuff.
What am I doing wrong here?

In PNL on page 214 in the “sample calculation to refresh you memory” example it says your starting stack is 80 BB. Next you raise 5 times the big blind, which is 5 BB and you get two callers - the blinds for simplicity. As a result, the pot is 15 BB. This makes sense 5 x 3 (two callers plus your initial raise) = 15 BB. And of course now 5 BB has depleted your stack down to 75 BB. So you must take this into account. This makes sense. As a result, the final SPR equals 5. Simple. 75 / 15 = 5. No problem.

Now lets go down further on the same page. The 2nd to last paragraph talks about too much math at the table and just memorize the charts (page 215 through 217).

Last paragraph says (and referring to the charts) “a raise to 3BB is three times the big blind. SPRs listed “assume” that the big blind calls if there is one caller and that both blinds call if there are two or more callers.” (This is just like the sample above – right?)

All right, so I look at chart 50BB on page 215 and using the instructions given above I do the following.

** Example 1 **
I raise to 3BB with my starting 50BB stack. Now my stack is 47 BB. I get ONE caller which means the Big blind calls as well. We have a total of 3 BBs from all the players and the small blind obviously folds. 3 BB x 3 players + SB = 9.5 BB. Right??

SPR is 47 / 9.5 = 4.947 (or 5)

The chart on 215 says for 50 BB and raise size to 3BB with ONE caller = 7.2. I get 5 but the chart says 7.2. huh?


** Example 2 **
Using the same instructions, lets say I have a 50 BB starting stack and raised to 10 BB with THREE callers. (Two or more callers = two blinds calling) In this case, there are a total of 6 players. Both blinds call, three callers, and me. 6 players x 10 BB = 60 BB. Now my starting stack has gone down to 40 BB.

SPR is 40 / 60 = .66667

The chart on 215 says for 50 BB and raise to 10 BB with THREE callers (remember last paragraph on 214 says to assume both blinds call if there are two or more callers) and the final SPR on the chart is 1.0.

The only way in this example to get an SPR of 1 is that both blinds do not call and you have THREE callers. Total BB is 40, your 10 BB raise plus three callers.
SPR 40 / 40 = 1

Now using this same example but adding FOUR callers without the the blinds calling you have a pot size of 50 BB. Once again, your 10 BB raise and four callers = 50 BB.

SPR 40 (stack size) / 50 (pot size) = 0.8 This matches what the chart says but only because the blinds had folded. Remember the last paragraph on pg 214 says having two or more callers both blinds call. I did not use both blinds in the equation. If both blinds call we would have a total pot size of (4x10BB)+(2x10BB)+10BB = 70 BB pot size.

SPR = 40 (my stack now after the raise) / 70 BB = 0.57 This does not equal what the chart says.

** Example 3 (Last one) **

Stack size 300BB, ONE caller, raise of 7BB.

My stack is now 293 BB. One caller means one blind calls = 14 BB. Small blind folds = 0.5 BB. Total pot size now 14.5 BB.

SPR = 293 / 14.5 = 20.2.

Wow I get the same SPR indicated in the chart on pg 217!!!
However, using the same chart lets use 10 BB with FOUR callers.

My stack is now 290 BB. Four callers means both blinds call (as indicated on bottom of page 214). Total pot size now is (4x10BB)+(2x10BB)+10BB = 70BB.

SPR = 290 / 70 = 4.14.

Chart says SPR is 5.8.

Lets use this same example but without both blinds.

SPR = 290 / 50 BB = 5.8.

Wow! I get the same SPR indicated in the chart on pg 217 BUT BOTH BLINDS did not call! This is completely against what that last paragraph on page 214 indicates that you should do.

Even the example at the bottom of page 171 does not match the chart on page 216. In this example you have 100 BB effective stack, one caller (the button) and the big blind calls. Small blind folds. 9.5BB pot.

SPR = 97 / 9.5 = 10.2.
Page 171 says approximately SPR of 10. Close enough. Chart on page 216 says SPR is 14.9.

So what the hell am I doing wrong???? Am I about to memorize a chart that is completely screwed up???

Is it me or the charts?

Matt, I messaged you about rounding the numbers so that I could memorize rounded numbers. The reason I started looking into this was because I wanted to create my own chart using Excel and to round to the nearest whole number. Plus, I wanted to start practice calculation SPRs in my head to get my brain thinking before heading to the tables.

I started randomly doing scenarios in my head and to see if my answer was correct using the charts. Each time I would get different answers. Sometimes I would get the same figure indicated in the chart, but only rarely. I even used scenarios of both blinds folding and still got different figures than the chart.

Is there something that I am completely missing here that is so simple that I just cannot see it??? (geezz I am probably going to get flamed bad)


Thank you,

Wada

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
In PNL on page 214 in the “sample calculation to refresh you memory” example it says your starting stack is 80 BB. Next you raise 5 times the big blind, which is 5 BB and you get two callers - the blinds for simplicity. As a result, the pot is 15 BB. This makes sense 5 x 3 (two callers plus your initial raise) = 15 BB. And of course now 5 BB has depleted your stack down to 75 BB. So you must take this into account. This makes sense. As a result, the final SPR equals 5. Simple. 75 / 15 = 5. No problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Last paragraph says (and referring to the charts) “a raise to 3BB is three times the big blind. SPRs listed “assume” that the big blind calls if there is one caller and that both blinds call if there are two or more callers.” (This is just like the sample above – right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that what is meant here is, "if there is one caller, assume that caller is the big blind." And "if there are two or more callers, assume that both blinds are among the callers."

This explains your example 1. I'm guessing that it explains the rest too.

[ QUOTE ]
** Example 1 **
I raise to 3BB with my starting 50BB stack. Now my stack is 47 BB. I get ONE caller which means the Big blind calls as well. We have a total of 3 BBs from all the players and the small blind obviously folds. 3 BB x 3 players + SB = 9.5 BB. Right??

SPR is 47 / 9.5 = 4.947 (or 5)

The chart on 215 says for 50 BB and raise size to 3BB with ONE caller = 7.2. I get 5 but the chart says 7.2. huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Wada]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that what is meant here is, "if there is one caller, assume that caller is the big blind." And "if there are two or more callers, assume that both blinds are among the callers."

This explains your example 1. I'm guessing that it explains the rest too.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ok now this makes the figures more accurate. And the last statement on pg 214, "If instead the blinds fold, the SPRs will be a little smaller" really confused me when using the explanations in this last paragraph.

I guess I forgot to take into account the small blind of 0.5 BB.

I think this last couple of paragraphs on page 214 need to be clearer.

Thanks. Obviously it was me who was mistaken.