Atkins Diet - Lets Discuss Pros/Cons/Experiences

[jah7_fsu1]

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One big problem with Atkins: very, very difficult to have high-quality workouts due to low carbohydrate intake. Performance suffers across the board, and glycogen stores are exhausted quickly and not replenished adequately afterward.

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I believe this is something your body "adapts" to I read once in a study. Maybe I'll dig it up tommorow. Think it said over a period of time your body adjusts to the lack of carbs and compensates. I've never gone all out keto before, and I can't remember how carb deprived testers were.

[Thremp]

jah,

It doesn't really matter how many articles you link to or anecdotal evidence you produce to the contrary for something that is ingrained in fact. Insulin is highly anabolic and you want it after you work out. Unless you inject it, there is really one way to get a big spike of it. PWO nutrition really turns on that main fact as its the goal in every PWO meal. Fructose (another simple carb) has been debunked on this on other boards for its lack of value in this application.

In a low carb diet they've found that slow acting carbs have almost no value as they increase ketosis but you can not affect ketosis with fast acting carbs so there literally is no serious lifter who should not be taking them.

Also can you please try to quote articles without trying to trick anyone. You do realize a link would make these "facts" much more easy to verify. Here are the contents of the titled article you cite:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/276/4/E628

There is nothing from the 2nd section. Obviously the first is about proteins while the 2nd is about carbs, please try to be somewhat more careful lest it seem like you are intentionally trying to mislead people.

[anklebreaker]

Here's an excerpt from (early proponent of ketogenic diets)Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0:

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For the most part, I simply see ketosis as a "side-effect" of fat loss (burning to be more accurate), more than something to be explicitly sought out. That is, when you accelerate fat oxidation with the methods above, you tend to enter ketosis. Ketosis in and of itself isn't any big deal. For that reason, I won't talk about monitoring ketone levels with Ketostix or anything like that. Frankly, using a low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diet for the fat loss phase of the UD2 has more to do with lowering insulin, raising catecholamines, and ramping up fat oxidation; ketosis is simply a tangential effect.

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[thirddan]

not that it really matters, but some highly regarded traines (chad waterbury/alwyn cosgrove) have said in interviews that for people training solely for fat loss they use a protein supplement only peri-workout, and will occasionally test a protein/carb drink and see whether or not in hinders fat loss...this is what ive heard/read in articles/interviews...

[guids]

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I'll just comment on random things.

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Simple sugars are a must in any diet with anyone who is weight training. Its not really debatable either. Complex carbs PWO (and pre) are inferior to dextrose.

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Actually I'd say the opposite or at least a mix if one was on a low carb diet. I'd say we want to avoid an insulin spike here to try and keep blood sugar balanced (assuming we want to minimize fat gain). I'd also use something like frutcose and not dextrose to minimize the spike. I've already said in another thread how I believe a lot of supplement manufacturers are going to start using more of a mix of slow and fast carbs postworkout. Designer Supp's newest postworkout shake comes to mind. A whole bunch of dextrose is an unneccessary risk when trying to minimze fat gain IMO.

Let's keep in mind we are extremely insulin sensitive after lifting. Also if your doing a low carb diet I wouldn't think someone is going to go really high on the training volume. Weight training is not a significantly glycogen depleting thing. I'd say a mix or slower would be the way to go on a diet like this. I'm not entirely convinced about the need for a huge insulin spike postworkout based on numerous studies I've read which show no real difference.

If anything I'd say maybe we need a spike, but I can definitely find evidence to say a HUGE spike is not neccessary.


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Tipton, K., Ferrando, A., Phillips, S., Doyle, D. & Wolfe, R. (1999). Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. The American Journal of Physiology, 276(4), E628-E634.

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6.) Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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You are completley wrong, it is the exact opposite. You want a large insulin spike post workout, whether on a low carb diet or not. The insuline spike PWO is a great thing. There is a reason why professional bodybuilers sometimes inject themselves with insulin, it is because used correctly it is highly anabolic.

[jah7_fsu1]

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jah,

It doesn't really matter how many articles you link to or anecdotal evidence you produce to the contrary for something that is ingrained in fact. Insulin is highly anabolic and you want it after you work out. Unless you inject it, there is really one way to get a big spike of it. PWO nutrition really turns on that main fact as its the goal in every PWO meal. Fructose (another simple carb) has been debunked on this on other boards for its lack of value in this application.

In a low carb diet they've found that slow acting carbs have almost no value as they increase ketosis but you can not affect ketosis with fast acting carbs so there literally is no serious lifter who should not be taking them.

Also can you please try to quote articles without trying to trick anyone. You do realize a link would make these "facts" much more easy to verify. Here are the contents of the titled article you cite:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/276/4/E628

There is nothing from the 2nd section. Obviously the first is about proteins while the 2nd is about carbs, please try to be somewhat more careful lest it seem like you are intentionally trying to mislead people.

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Please tell me how it is "ingrained in fact" that we need a huge insulin spike post-workout. I would love to see studies showing this. Below is a bunch of different abstracts showing points for and points against high GI carbs post-workout. Funny how that is "ingrained in fact" to you when evidence clearly shows other wise. I'm not saying we don't need any insulin spike, just not a huge one. And I'd be highly surprised if you can find direct evidence showing we need a huge insulin spike cause I've looked all over pubmed in the past and haven't seen it. I just don't see how it doesn't matter how many articles I link to...uhmm, doesn't scientific evidence matter to you? I'm not saying we don't need any fast acting carbs, merely that no real evidence has been examined that says we they provide a huge benefit post-workout. Knowledge tells us that keeping your blood sugar more balanced would be beneficial to avoiding fat gain, so I'm saying it's an unneccessary risk to pound dextrose postworkout. Besides if everyone is worried about "fast acting" why are they taking dextrose when things like Waxy Maize Starch are available?

As for providing direct links, most of the things I get are abstracts off of pubmed without access to the full-write up. I can usually find the full-write up if need be, but not always so I usually just post the abstracts since it has the good stuff.


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1.)

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

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Here's a follow up on that one.

2.)

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL, Kuo CH.

Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 9578375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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3.) Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.

Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair. Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11897899 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Here's one for the amounts of glucose. All were the same so why would cram so much dextrose malto down your throat?



4.) Effect of different post-exercise sugar diets on the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis.

Blom PC, Hostmark AT, Vaage O, Kardel KR, Maehlum S.

Department of Physiology, National Institute of Occupational Health, Oslo, Norway.

The effect of repeated ingestions of fructose, sucrose, and various amounts of glucose on muscle glycogen synthesis during the first 6 h after exhaustive bicycle exercise was studied. Muscle biopsies for glycogen determination were taken before and after exercise, and every second hour during recovery. Blood samples for plasma glucose and insulin determination were taken before and after exercise, and every hour during recovery. When 0.35 (low glucose: N = 5), 0.70 (medium glucose: N = 5), or 1.40 (high glucose: N = 5) g.kg-1 body weight of glucose were given orally at 0, 2, and 4 h after exercise, the rates of glycogen synthesis were (mean +/- SE) 2.1 +/- 0.5, 5.8 +/- 1.0, and 5.7 +/- 0.9 mmol.kg-1.h-1, respectively. When 0.70 g.kg-1 body weight of sucrose (medium sucrose: N = 5), or fructose (medium fructose: N = 7) was ingested accordingly, the rates were 6.2 +/- 0.5 and 3.2 +/- 0.7 mmol.kg-1.h-1. Average plasma glucose level during recovery were similar in low glucose, medium glucose, and high glucose groups (5.76 +/- 0.24, 6.31 +/- 0.64, and 6.52 +/- 0.24 mM), while average plasma insulin levels were higher with higher glucose intake (16 +/- 1, 21 +/- 3, and 38 +/- 4 microU.ml-1).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

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5.) Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise.

Wojcik JR, Walber-Rankin J, Smith LL, Gwazdauskas FC.

Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg 24061, USA.

This study examined effects of carbohydrate (CHO), milk-based carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO), or placebo (P) beverages on glycogen resynthesis, muscle damage, inflammation, and muscle function following eccentric resistance exercise. Untrained males performed a cycling exercise to reduce muscle glycogen 12 hours prior to performance of 100 eccentric quadriceps contractions at 120% of 1-RM (day 1) and drank CHO (n = 8), CHO-PRO (n = 9; 5 kcal/kg), or P (n = 9) immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. At 3 hours post-eccentric exercise, serum insulin was four times higher for CHO-PRO and CHO than P (p < .05). Serum creatine kinase (CK) increased for all groups in the 6 hours post-eccentric exercise (p < .01), with the increase tending to be lowest for CHO-PRO (p < .08) during this period. Glycogen was low post-exercise (33+/-3.7 mmol/kg ww), increased 225% at 24 hours, and tripled by 72 hours, with no group differences. The eccentric exercise increased muscle protein breakdown as indicated by urinary 3-methylhistidine and increased IL-6 with no effect of beverage. Quadriceps isokinetic peak torque was depressed similarly for all groups by 24% 24 hours post-exercise and remained 21% lower at 72 hours (p < .01). In summary, there were no influences of any post-exercise beverage on muscle glycogen replacement, inflammation, or muscle function.

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You high carb dieters are only hurting yourselves!!!

6.) Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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7.) Type and timing of protein feeding to optimize anabolism.

Mosoni L, Mirand PP.

PURPOSE OF REVIEWThe delivery rate of amino acids to an organism significantly affects protein anabolism. The rate can be controlled by the type and the timing of feeding. Our aim was to bring new insights to the way they may act.RECENT FINDINGSDuring young and adult ages, when food supply is liberal, subjects can adapt to various modes of protein feeding. However, during food restriction, protein anabolism is favored when the delivery of amino acids is evenly distributed over the day, either with frequent meals, or through the use of slowly absorbed proteins like casein. In contrast, during aging, quickly absorbed protein sources become more efficient. During recovery after exercise, the timing of protein feeding after the end of exercise may or may not influence its anabolic effect, depending on the subject's age and the type of exercise.SUMMARYThe synchronization of variations in anabolic capability with amino acid supply partly explains the effects of the type and timing of protein feeding. This effect is modulated by the amount of amino acids required to increase whole-body proteins and by the signaling properties of some amino acids to stimulate protein synthesis. Indeed, the anabolic effect of amino acids is determined by their interaction with other anabolic factors (other nutrients or physiological factors, whose efficiency is mainly related to their effect on protein degradation). It is clear that benefits can be obtained from adapted protein feeding patterns.

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8.) Effect of different types of high carbohydrate diets on glycogen metabolism in liver and skeletal muscle of endurance-trained rats.

Garrido G, Guzman M, Odriozola JM.

Department of Human Performance, National Institute of Physical Education, Madrid, Spain.

Male Wistar rats were fed ad libitum four different diets containing fructose, sucrose, maltodextrins or starch as the source of carbohydrate (CH). One group was subjected to moderate physical training on a motor-driven treadmill for 10 weeks (trained rats). A second group received no training and acted as a control (sedentary rats). Glycogen metabolism was studied in the liver and skeletal muscle of these animals. In the sedentary rats, liver glycogen concentrations increased by 60%-90% with the administration of simple CH diets compared with complex CH diets, whereas skeletal muscle glycogen stores were not significantly affected by the diet. Physical training induced a marked decrease in the glycogen content in liver (20%-30% of the sedentary rats) and skeletal muscle (50%-80% of the sedentary rats) in animals fed simple (but not complex) CH diets. In liver this was accompanied by a two-fold increase of triacylglycerol concentrations. Compared with simple CH diets, complex CH feeding increased by 50%-150% glycogen synthase (GS) activity in liver, whereas only a slight increase in GS activity was observed in skeletal muscle. In all the animal groups, a direct relationship existed between tissue glucose 6-phosphate concentration and glycogen content (r = 0.9911 in liver, r = 0.7177 in skeletal muscle). In contrast, no relationship was evident between glycogen concentrations and either glycogen phosphorylase activity or adenosine 5'-monophosphate tissue concentration. The results from this study thus suggest that for trained rats diets containing complex CH (compared with diets containing simple CH) improve the glycogenic capacity of liver and skeletal muscle, thus enabling the adequate regeneration of glycogen stores in these two tissues.

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9.)Simple and complex carbohydrate-rich diets and muscle glycogen content of marathon runners.

Roberts KM, Noble EG, Hayden DB, Taylor AW.

Faculty of Physical Education, University of Western Ontario, London, Canada.

The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared. Twenty male marathon runners were divided into four equal groups with reference to dietary consumption: depletion/simple, depletion/complex, nondepletion/simple, and nondepletion/complex. Subjects consumed either a low-CHO (15% energy [E] intake), or a mixed diet (50% CHO) for 3 days, immediately followed by a high-CHO diet (70% E intake) predominant in either simple-CHO or in complex-CHO (85% of total CHO intake) for another 3 days. Skeletal muscle biopsies and venous blood samples were obtained one day prior to the start of the low-CHO diet or mixed diet (PRE), and then again one day after the completion of the high-CHO diet (POST). The samples were analysed for skeletal muscle glycogen, serum free fatty acids (FFA), insulin, and lactate and blood glucose. Skeletal muscle glycogen content increased significantly (p less than 0.05) only in the nondepletion/simple group. When groups were combined, according to the type of CHO ingested and/or utilization of a depletion diet, significant increases were observed in glycogen content. Serum FFA decreased significantly (p less than 0.05) for the nondepletion/complex group only, while serum insulin, blood glucose, and serum lactate were not altered. It is concluded that significant increases in skeletal muscle glycogen content can be achieved with a diet high in simple-CHO or complex-CHO, with or without initial consumption of a low-CHO diet.

PMID: 3342797 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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10.) Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

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[jah7_fsu1]

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You are completley wrong, it is the exact opposite. You want a large insulin spike post workout, whether on a low carb diet or not. The insuline spike PWO is a great thing.

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Muscle glycogen is going to be replaced regardless of the carbs consumed. Your protein is going to be absorbed regardless of the type of carbs consumed. If we are on a diet that only allows a little bit of carbs I'd love evidence (not an unresearched common exercise myth) why we should use dextrose or similar carbs postworkout when we are trying to lose fat.

Seems like an unneccessary risk given the fact that a mix of slow and fast carbs would get the same job done.

[Thremp]

Do you even read the drivel you "cite"? You cited one article twice in that list of ten and it was the same one you cited above. Many of those studies also cover liver glycogen in endurance athletes, some cover protein feeding, nothing that pertains to anything in this discussion. Some of the studies pretty clearly blow as one concludes that PWO nutrition does not affect anything. Please don't promote a different kind of discussion subjugation by providing nonsense science like its gospel.

The reason I ask you to cite directly is because you quoted a title and then what seemed to be a passage below it that didn't exist. It seems you barely are aware of what you cite if at all.

Hrm... Where was I... Ah. WMS... Yes, it looks very interesting a main reason people might not use it is due to the debatable nature of its efficacy and price. It seems somewhere between 2x-4x the cost of dextrose for a marginal benefit at best. I have no looked through all the threads intently (There a lot of information about the insulin question which I think is pretty standard and easily answered again, if you read your sources it'd make for a much more solid argument). I did not see any comps of insulin response or even glycemic index which I think would be much better to determine usage than "feel" and some half-crocked studies done by loosely associated research firms.

Lastly, you seem to be backpedaling on what you said. What is your actual position or are you just producing nonsense science to try to make an argument where there is none? I said that everyone need simple carbs in their diet and that tdarko was incorrect and giving poor advice. If you lift weights you need fast acting carbs in your diet is probably true for 99% of people (thirddan correctly mentioned an exception as ketogenic diets can have people who do not respond well to PWO with lots of carbs and it can eff up their diet). You seem to say that big insulin spikes are bad, but we need some insulin spike (why?). Before I try to delve into what you mean any further, can you clarify your position? I'm confused what you are even trying to say behind this muddying of the waters and backpedaling you are doing.

Note: Posted before above response which seems to clarify what you mean a little more.

[guids]

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You are completley wrong, it is the exact opposite. You want a large insulin spike post workout, whether on a low carb diet or not. The insuline spike PWO is a great thing.

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Muscle glycogen is going to be replaced regardless of the carbs consumed. Your protein is going to be absorbed regardless of the type of carbs consumed. If we are on a diet that only allows a little bit of carbs I'd love evidence (not an unresearched common exercise myth) why we should use dextrose or similar carbs postworkout when we are trying to lose fat.

Seems like an unneccessary risk given the fact that a mix of slow and fast carbs would get the same job done.

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You dont really know how the body works directly after a workout, so there is no point in me arguing with you, so Im not going to. Do some research on it, get at least a basic understanding of what happens in regards to glycogen stores, insulin, etc after a workout, and get back to me. But once you do, you wont need too because you will understand why you are wrong.

[Jetboy2]

Here's an anecdotal experience.

Long bike rides with a group. Usually, 50 to 80 miles over mixed terrain.

This one guy in the group kept "bonking" and losing his energy well into the rides. At first, it was difficult to understand why he kept hitting the wall. It turned out that he was on the Atkins diet. While most of us were consuming carbs all through the rides; this one guy was just having cheese, or beef jerky, or something like that.

So one day, he was totally losing it, something like 60 miles into an 80 mile ride. This was late in the day, we're way out on some country road and with hills to climb to get home. Finally! It comes out that he's on the Atkins diet and is only eating protein and fat! Well, we made him eat a bunch of fig newtons and thus he made it back home.

After that, we didn't let him join us for rides until he gave up a "no carbs" diet.

jb2