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  #31  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:36 PM
PartyScout PartyScout is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

[ QUOTE ]
obv 100BIs is gonna cost you if you were good enough to beat nl1k. but then, when you play for a living, i dont think moving up should be your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf is it with 100BIs is this for HU play wtf wtf wtf

How many tables is he playing?
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  #32  
Old 11-05-2007, 10:55 PM
LouisCyphre LouisCyphre is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

I was surprised when I read your 6300 hands/week statement. Last month for example I played close to 75k hands despite the fact that my month essentially ended on the 26th because I had to visit the in-laws.
If you play full-time I think 6300 is a ridiculously low amount.
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  #33  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:07 AM
NOSUP4U NOSUP4U is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised when I read your 6300 hands/week statement. Last month for example I played close to 75k hands despite the fact that my month essentially ended on the 26th because I had to visit the in-laws.
If you play full-time I think 6300 is a ridiculously low amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play full time and I'm happy to get over 20K hands / month.

Less tables + higher bb/100 = more free time FTW?

Also to the OP, most important thing is to have 6 months of living expenses in the bank. That plus 20buyins online for NL is reasonable to me. Maybe more if you play a higher variance style?

Mark
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  #34  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:12 AM
baztalkspoker baztalkspoker is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised when I read your 6300 hands/week statement. Last month for example I played close to 75k hands despite the fact that my month essentially ended on the 26th because I had to visit the in-laws.
If you play full-time I think 6300 is a ridiculously low amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I normally don't play more than 4 tables at a time, and I'm also reasonably choosy about which tables I play, so in between waiting for a seat in a juicy table and quitting a table when it has no fish or maniacs left my mt ratio would struggle to be above 2.5. I mentioned 35 hours a week, maybe I could try to increase this to say 50. I worked out that I average almost 74 hands per hour in Hold'em, a lot less in Omaha but I have a far higher bb/100 win rate in Omaha.

Anyway taking it as 74 hands per hour, 50 hours a week with mt ratio of 2.5*50*2.5*74 = 9250 hands a week. So 9250 hands a week works out at approx 40000 hands a month. This is still almost half of what you acheived in a month. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Not sure how I could turn over that number of hands in a month. It'd be good if I could do so as the rakeback alone should cover my wage requirements. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Most of the time I'm not prepared to put in more than 50 hours a week as it would effectively mean I become a hermit. So the only thing that I can really affect is my mt ratio. Playing a max of 4 tables for me at least means a real mt ratio of 2.5 at best! I've never got comfortable with playing more than 4 tables at a time. Maybe if I adjusted my game and tightened up a bit I could do this. I'd still be concerened that the standard of my play would drop to a point that it was -EV to be playing so many tables.

LouisCyphre can you tell me how you manage to play 75000 hands in a month, you putting in a lot of hours or playing 6 tables + or both?
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  #35  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:34 AM
MTBlue MTBlue is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

Do you have kids? Is your wife employed? Its seems like at this point you will struggle to support a family on your poker earnings. I know that it all looks rosy when you are running at 4pt/bb/100 but you'll go through stretches where you are breakeven/ losing.

How bout health insurance? Can you afford it if you or your wife gets sick/hurt?

You will be working 50 hrs a week at a quasilegal job with little chance of advancement. There are only about 15 players a month who win more than 4K at 2/4 on Pokerstars (TOTAL! The names change). Its a Sisyphean task to make ends meet in this situation.

I'm a poker pro, but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it if I was raising a family that was dependent on my monthly earn. I am looking at exit strategies from playing already. There are lots of risk factors that are relatively high that you can't control this makes it an a unappealing choice for a profession.
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  #36  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:13 AM
baztalkspoker baztalkspoker is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have kids? Is your wife employed? Its seems like at this point you will struggle to support a family on your poker earnings. I know that it all looks rosy when you are running at 4pt/bb/100 but you'll go through stretches where you are breakeven/ losing.

How bout health insurance? Can you afford it if you or your wife gets sick/hurt?

You will be working 50 hrs a week at a quasilegal job with little chance of advancement. There are only about 15 players a month who win more than 4K at 2/4 on Pokerstars (TOTAL! The names change). Its a Sisyphean task to make ends meet in this situation.

I'm a poker pro, but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it if I was raising a family that was dependent on my monthly earn. I am looking at exit strategies from playing already. There are lots of risk factors that are relatively high that you can't control this makes it an a unappealing choice for a profession.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a feeling I was going to get the 'Are you sure you should go professional line'. My question here wasn't about going pro. I am really just interested in peoples opinions on what one's bankroll requirements should be. I know already about risk of ruin stuff. Having approx 20 to 30 buy-ins for a bankroll where you don't make withdrawals. My own instinct on the effect of being pro would be to have about 50 buy-ins minimum plus money in the bank set aside, but I didn't want to leave it to my instinct alone and so requested my peers valued opinions.

As an aside I would be very interested if someone could explain Bill Chen's RoRU formula i.e. Risk of Ruin with uncertain Win rates formula.

To reiterate I have been largely playing as a pro in the last year anyway. My other work has been writing about poker, which I have been doing for a large online site(not prepared to mention whom here for obvious reasons of privacy). So basically I have been immersed in poker for a long time. Also my win rate is higher than 4 ptBB/100. My win rates that I mentioned were ptbb/hour. In Omaha for 2/4 to 3/6 my win rate is actually 9.59 ptbb/100, and in holdem a less rosy 5.43 ptbb/100 - the per hour gap is much narrower however. I don't have any kids. I'm not American so I don't pay tax on my winnings and also health insurance in Europe is nowhere near as expensive as it is for you guys. I also have some poker information sites in my name that can make me money expecially if I put more effort into them. Also I play on the softer European sites mostly, where there are a lot more people than 15 players a month making over $4K a month.

I've worked as a computer programmer for many years before hand and absolutely hated it after a while. For the past year I have been playing and writing about poker full-time, now I just want to concentrate fully on playing it as I think I can make more money by dedicating my time to playing and also enjoy playing it more than writing about it. I had plenty of success in the past year, including enough to buy a cheap property abroad.

In the worst case scenario and poker does turn sour on me, I can easily turn my hand to developing websites and making money from that, so it's far from an all or nothing situation for me. I understand the cautionary tale about going pro but I'm not some newbie flushed with recent success.

Anyway please don't let this thread turn into a 'Should I go pro thread.' It's about what bankroll should one have as a pro, for which I have had some very good answers which I appreciate.

Edit:I'd like to know also how people manage 75000 hands a month?
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  #37  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:27 AM
Learning Learning is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

There is absolutely no way that only 15 2/4 players are making 10 buyins a month.
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  #38  
Old 11-06-2007, 09:28 AM
MTBlue MTBlue is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

I see you've thought it through. I'm not going to dissuade you.

Chen's suggestion is to figure out how much you are going to withdraw then subtract that from your winrate and calculate your Risk of Ruin using the second number.
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  #39  
Old 11-06-2007, 09:58 AM
baztalkspoker baztalkspoker is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

[ QUOTE ]
I see you've thought it through. I'm not going to dissuade you.

Chen's suggestion is to figure out how much you are going to withdraw then subtract that from your winrate and calculate your Risk of Ruin using the second number.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do understand people's eyebrow raising when someone mentions about going pro. For me going pro is not something I woke up with 1 morning and I did off the cuff, it's been a gradual enough process... anyway...

Yeah I read the part about subtracting your withdrawls from your win rate. On a positive note If I can play enough hands my rakeback alone should make this subtraction quite small if anything. I'll need to estimate my monthly rakeback to be sure. Specifically what I haven't figured out yet is how to input the various variables into Chen's RoRU formula and I'm an ex Mathematics graduate (long time ago mind so i'm rusty [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]), I think I might have to read through more of the book to understand the formula better. If anyone can give a practical example of inputting the win rates, standard deviation and hands played into an equation that would be great.
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  #40  
Old 11-06-2007, 11:17 AM
_STARKEY_ _STARKEY_ is offline
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Default Re: Bankroll for full time play

Question for ppl using a 20bi Roll.....How many bi's do u have to lose to move down???? how many bi's till u take a shot at the next level and i take it you never play tourneys???
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