Official argue about all things Barry Bonds GOAT thread

[RedBean]

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I completely agree that the football players would win. The first clip of rugby I have ever seen was the Youtube clip that was posted. You shouldn't assume things.


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Speaking of assuming things, I think the football players wouldn't stand a chance.....so I'm not sure how you are "completely agreeing", when we have different viewpoints.

Like I said, I merely posted a historical fact that showed it had happened before.

I never concluded that it would happen again, and I personally think it wouldn't be possible.

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You never said Hank was a habitual user, yet you classified him as a drug cheat.


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Using the criteria as defined by the person I was debating, who defined "cheating" as even one-time use, in order to display his own hypocrisy as he quickly backed off that stance when he discovered Aaron himself had once admitted to PED use.

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I'll give you that the Clear was not illegal,


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Nice of you to be so generous, considering you had asserted the opposite until I threw indisputable proof in your face.

Funny how that works, huh?

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Did Bonds violate steroid policy? Maybe not.


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There is no maybe. It is indisputable fact that Barry Bonds has not violated the MLB Steroid Policy.

[MikeyPatriot]

Vyse,

Doesn't Barry's EQA go way out of whack because of the ridiculous amount of walks he took in those years?

[Vyse]

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Vyse,

Doesn't Barry's EQA go way out of whack because of the ridiculous amount of walks he took in those years?

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And he only started getting walked because he destroyed everything when he was pitched to.

You think if he was challenged more and saw better pitches to hit he wouldn't of hit more home runs?

Likely. Almost 100%. But either way that's a subjective opinion, and RedBean only deals with facts.

Fact: Bonds' EqA skyrocketed at an age and to a level which no one else has ever approached.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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Vyse,

Doesn't Barry's EQA go way out of whack because of the ridiculous amount of walks he took in those years?

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we had a long discussion about this before, and you can't just use that argument. there is a relationship between power and walks - those more feared a power hitter is - and he has a good eye - his walks will go up. now the relationship isn't perfect, but it shouldn't be surprising that his walks went way up b/c his power also increased - which caused his .eqa to go up.

we talked before about calculating his late year .eqa by discounting walks somehow, but I'm not sure anybody every did it.

[RedBean]

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Marcus Allen was at his party? Barry must be a good guy. Marcus wouldn't hang out with bad people, you know other than OJ Simpson anyway.


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I take it your not so up to date on the relationship between Marcus and OJ.

But, don't let that get in the way of you trying to draw comparisions between someone found liable for killing people and someone who hits curveballs for a living.

[RedBean]

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I think you are reading into his posts a lot more than what is there. He points out that Aaron used greenies, and TO YOU he is labelling him as a "cheater." He points out that Aaron had a late-career surge and TO YOU he is saying clean players can do it too. In reality he is just describing reality and letting you draw your own conclusions. Your response here is funny because its pretty much EXACTLY what he is talking about above, your need to place him neatly into some binary category of "clean" or "dirty."

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QFT.

[Vyse]

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Vyse,

Doesn't Barry's EQA go way out of whack because of the ridiculous amount of walks he took in those years?

[/ QUOTE ]

we had a long discussion about this before, and you can't just use that argument. there is a relationship between power and walks - those more feared a power hitter is - and he has a good eye - his walks will go up. now the relationship isn't perfect, but it shouldn't be surprising that his walks went way up b/c his power also increased - which caused his .eqa to go up.

we talked before about calculating his late year .eqa by discounting walks somehow, but I'm not sure anybody every did it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're arguing against yourself here. His power obviously went up dramatically -- sorry, but home run power isn't the only thing that matters; he also set all-time records in SLG% I am fairly sure -- which is the reason why he was walked in historic amounts -- people were historically afraid of his power.

And I bet if I looked into it, his LD% probably shot up, which would explain those career-high BAs.

If you don't want to talk about EqA or walks, we can talk about all-time greats who magically outdid themselves dramatically in BA and SLG, or OPS, or ISO, etc.

[RedBean]

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Interesting sidenote:

If Bonds is listed in the Mitchell report, does that change any minds about the probabilites of BB using some sort of PED?

I guess rephrased, does the Mitchell report carry with it any credibility in your mind?

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Does it carry credibility in your mind?

I certainly think it does, and I'm excited to see it's release in the coming month and whether or not the media and fans in general will apply the same standard that they've pre-emptively applied to Bonds to the 30+ players implicated in it by name....even when it turns out that some of those names are guys they like.

Of course, I'm guessing most folks such as yourself are reserving assigning it any credibility until whether or not you see if Bonds is implicated or not....and will make the determination based solely on whether or not he is mentioned.

After all, it isn't about PEDs....it's about getting Bonds.

To save you the suspense....don't get your hopes up. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[manbearpig]

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This post should cover all your Hank Aaron comparisons:

park effects.

And a linky for you: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=2795

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Hank definately benefited from HOME park effects at the launching pad, as the article shows.

But...it doesn't "cover all the comparisions" for his late career surge...considering he played half his games AWAY from the home stadium, and through the magic of statistical splits, we can quantify the difference over the same time period independent of his home park.

Let's look at what Hank did over the same time period, away from Fulton County.

AB/HR on the ROAD:
Age 30-34: 19.77
Age 35-39: 14.22

A HUGE increase in ROAD HR Rate.

Oops...

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me have a go at cherry picking numbers:

From 1966 to 1969 (ages 32 to 35)

Aaron hit 84 hr's at home and 74 on the road.

From 1970 to 1973 (ages 36 to 39)

Aaron hit 97 hr's at home and 62 on the road.

Please to be explaining.

[manbearpig]

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Bonds as he got older got bigger/fatter and slower. He's no longer able to hit as many singles as before, which means his hr/h could increase drastically without even gaining power/homers.

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Right, except for he did gain power.

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To which you immediately assume it must be the result of steroids, and neglect any effects from expansion resulting in watered down pitching, leaguewide trends in increased homerun rate, and the switch to maple bats from ash.

But hey, don't let anything that might disagree with your self-fulfilling opinion get in the way. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Just a piece of the puzzle. I have never claimed that single piece of information is by itself the whole story. I think a lot of what you bring up is valid. I just dont think we should blindly believe that is all it is when there is evidence to the contrary, completely credible or not.