TJ Cloutier's new book

[smbruin22]

just to be clear.... i didn't think clouthier was a hypocrite because he plays differently than the book.....

he has his opponent reads and often very different circumstances in tournaments (blinds eating up his stack etc.)..... i do have some complaints about the book, but not that he doesn't play 100% that way himself

[pfkaok]

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i didn't think clouthier was a hypocrite because he plays differently than the book.....


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Well, the increadibly poor advice in his "championship NL holdem" or whatever it is, I felt was very hypocritical, and/or selfish. He clearly didn't try his hardest to give the best advice possible. It was almost as if he was trying to encourage players to play in a style that was very, very easy to play against.

I agree that him not playing 100% like it doesn't by itself make the book hypocritical. But the fact that he plays NOTHING like the book, and very likely didn't try his best to give people strong, winning advice... that makes the book at least somewhat hypocritical.

[betgo]

It's mostly deliberate misinformation. The new one sounds like it too with the high standards for defending you blinds against late position raises and so on.

I love the "Practice Hands" book where there is one page on suited connectors and several pages on playing a set of aces. You get AA 1/221 hands, you see a flop with it maybe 1/500, so you flop a set of aces about 1/4000 hands. When you do, you are unlikely to get much action, since no one else is likely to have an ace. Very easy to get blinded out waiting for that.

[smbruin22]

some of you guys are saying deliberate misinformation???.... so he can beat us at the tables??? i find that hard to believe... i think he may underestimate our learning ability though.

it is pretty funny how almost all of the practice problems in his older books are AA-KK and AK.... boy, if that was my biggest problem, i'd be very happy.

[pfkaok]

well... deliberate misinformation might be a bit of a stretch, but I think its at least a possibility. I mean have you actually read that book. I've never played with TJ, but I know he's done very well, and is supposed to be a very good, and tough player. His book is pathetic. I think its at least possible that he wrote about playing in a style that he would most like his opponents to play.

As I said though, it very well could be a stretch, but I at least think its not impossible. Consider if you were TJ, and you thought your book would sell well, and you didn't care at all how good the book was. WHy not write it and instruct people to play in a horribly weak/tight fashion that is increadibly easy to exploit. I'll bet very often TJ is at a table with some amatuer who says he's read, and loves his book. TJ already made some $$ from selling that player the book, and he'll make way more from them when he plays against them, since they're going to fold anytime he makes a strong play at any pot and they don't have the nuts.

[Aceshigh7]

I don't know if this new book is any good or not, but I just wanted to add that I had T.J at my table one time and from my experience, at least in the beginning few levels of a tournament, he played extremely tight, just like his books advocate. It wasn't until later that he started getting involved more.

[betgo]

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well... deliberate misinformation might be a bit of a stretch, but I think its at least a possibility. I mean have you actually read that book. I've never played with TJ, but I know he's done very well, and is supposed to be a very good, and tough player. His book is pathetic. I think its at least possible that he wrote about playing in a style that he would most like his opponents to play.

As I said though, it very well could be a stretch, but I at least think its not impossible. Consider if you were TJ, and you thought your book would sell well, and you didn't care at all how good the book was. WHy not write it and instruct people to play in a horribly weak/tight fashion that is increadibly easy to exploit. I'll bet very often TJ is at a table with some amatuer who says he's read, and loves his book. TJ already made some $$ from selling that player the book, and he'll make way more from them when he plays against them, since they're going to fold anytime he makes a strong play at any pot and they don't have the nuts.

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It is true that both TJ and coauthor McEvoy are very tight players.

I do think it is disinformation. You hate to accuse people of stuff, but it is pretty obvious.

When I started playing tournaments, it was one of the few books out there, so I think a lot of people did read it.

The best use of the book was detailed by McManus in his book. He told TJ he read the book. Then he TJ bluffed off his chips to McManus doubling him up and giving McManus the lead in the WSOP ME. McManus said he knew TJ knew McManus had read the book, so he played the hand the opposite of how the book reccommended. I don't know if McManus consciously viewed TJ's book as misinformation, but he certainly exploited it.

[Galilee]

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Then he TJ bluffed off his chips to McManus doubling him up and giving McManus the lead in the WSOP ME. McManus said he knew TJ knew McManus had read the book, so he played the hand the opposite of how the book reccommended. I don't know if McManus consciously viewed TJ's book as misinformation, but he certainly exploited it.

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TJ did try to bluff McManus, but he didn't plan on McManus calling him down with AK unimproved.

I remember McManus said something to TJ like, 'Your book taught me everything I know.' To which TJ replied, 'It sure as hell didn't teach you that!'

McManus's book is great, but I got the impression he was a fairly weak player, and not someone who could outwit TJ by turning his advice against him. He just got caught in a tough spot with AK and couldn't think of anything to do but call and hope for the best.

TJ's book (if you ask me) is unfocused and confusing -compared to others at least - but the one thing I'd say it's not is deliberate misinformation. No one, let alone TJ Cloutier, would stoop that low.

[betgo]

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Then he TJ bluffed off his chips to McManus doubling him up and giving McManus the lead in the WSOP ME. McManus said he knew TJ knew McManus had read the book, so he played the hand the opposite of how the book reccommended. I don't know if McManus consciously viewed TJ's book as misinformation, but he certainly exploited it.

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TJ did try to bluff McManus, but he didn't plan on McManus calling him down with AK unimproved.

I remember McManus said something to TJ like, 'Your book taught me everything I know.' To which TJ replied, 'It sure as hell didn't teach you that!'

McManus's book is great, but I got the impression he was a fairly weak player, and not someone who could outwit TJ by turning his advice against him. He just got caught in a tough spot with AK and couldn't think of anything to do but call and hope for the best.

TJ's book (if you ask me) is unfocused and confusing -compared to others at least - but the one thing I'd say it's not is deliberate misinformation. No one, let alone TJ Cloutier, would stoop that low.

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My feeling was that TJ did give deliberate misinformation. I don't think McManus was deliberately exploiting it. However, he realized that TJ would have expected him to have read the book and he figured he had to play AK differently than recommended in the book. I think McManus, as an author himself, had an intuitive ability to read between the lines of TJ's book.

[caretaker1]

In retrospect, reading books by TJ Cloutier signficantly stunted by poker development. I'd pass on anything by him.