help me design a poker class for high school

[acer]

Okay, guys, I need your help, especially your creativity. The next school year, 2008-09, they want teachers at my school to design a class about anything they want--it just have to be approved by a committee. It would be for a four week course known as a "mini-mester". I would like to teach a class on poker, but I have to word my proposal for the committee carefully, so that it can get approved. If it's merely a class on poker, I doubt it would pass, especially since it's a Catholic high school.

Please help me think of a way to title the course and to make it more academic (or academic-sounding) in nature, including possible readings, and what the learning outcomes of the students would be. If possible I would like to avoid using the word poker in the title.

I was hoping the poker class could teach them something about life, such as risk assessment, critical thinking, body language, and anything else you can think of. Perhaps I can have them read a few chapter from the Art of War (?) What other selected readings would you recommend?

Also, are there any courses out there already for the high school or college level?

I'm really counting on your ingenuity, fellas and ladies. You are one smart crowd, that's for sure. Thanks!

[AFCBeer]

You might want to check the recent article in the twoplustwo magazine

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/sklansyschoonmaker0907.htm

Apologies if you've already seen it but it might give you a few ideas of what approach to take.

Good luck sounds like a good course!

[shark_fishin]

you missed the L off the end of that link :-\

[PantsOnFire]

How about titling the course "Game Theory". That sounds pretty official.

In the course, you could actually teach about game theory and expected value. Also add in odds and probabilities and you would have some really good math content. Then in the last week, you could apply this knowledge to some game situations in a game like Holdem.

Good luck.

[pzhon]

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I would like to teach a class on poker, but I have to word my proposal for the committee carefully, so that it can get approved. If it's merely a class on poker, I doubt it would pass, especially since it's a Catholic high school.


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It strikes me as a really bad idea that will reflect badly on you. Seriously, will any of the people on the committee be in a position to fire you later?

Why not make the class, "Probability and Applied Math," and use a few examples from poker, but not make the class on poker? Aim to show students real applications of basic mathematics, whether it is determining the interest payments on a loan or the expected return/expected utility of a gamble.

Don't expect to turn someone who doesn't know how to play poker into someone who does, particularly if he starts out thinking that he does know how to play, and has to unlearn things.

[toymach776]

I really dont think that you should be attempting to teach poker or general gambling concepts to high school students. Im sure that your intentions are good but they are high school students. They are impressionable and if you go and put the idea in their minds that poker can be profitable, they are all going to want to go out and play. Kids that age are simply not mature enough to be responsible about it. Parents will be pissed and I mean PISSED when they get wind of it, which they will. They will come puunding down your door and you will take a lot of heat. Your job may be in jeopardy. Like I said, I know your intentions are good, but just stop and think about how the general public perceives poker and gambling.

[Q8offsuit]

This sounds like a really, really, really horrible idea.

[PantsOnFire]

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This sounds like a really, really, really horrible idea.

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I don't see too much wrong with teaching about game theory and odds and making betting decisions in general.

Perhaps we can show young people how awful the odds are for playing casino games like slots, roulette, craps, blackjack, etc.

Yes, the public has a general bad impression of the "gambler" and "poker", yet these same people flock to casinos and play -EV games. However, these people being the hypocrites that they are, probably don't want their children to smoke, drink, gamble, have sex, stay up late and do all the things that most adults do.

I am in the camp that thinks we should educate children when they are at an appropriate age. We need to teach them about all these vices and the good and bad that can come from them. Why not educate them on how gambling works with regard to game theory and odds?

[TrvChBoy]

Yeah, a poker class probably won't be real popular with the parents, but I do remember learning a LOT about gambling situations during a probability and statistics course I took my Sophomore year in high school.

Seems like the teacher used a card or dice analogy for every problem... hmm... maybe I WAS taking a poker class.

[pzhon]

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This sounds like a really, really, really horrible idea.

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I don't see too much wrong with teaching about game theory and odds and making betting decisions in general.
...
Why not educate them on how gambling works with regard to game theory and odds?

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Game theory normally refers to the theory of games like the Prisoner's Dilemma, rock-paper-scissors, etc. It does not refer to the theory of games people play like chess or poker. While there are some applications to poker, most applications that people understand are minor, both from the perspective of poker and from game theory.

Odds play a role in poker, but only on the river or when you are calling all-in are you getting decisions simply based on odds, and even those depend on your opponents. If you have 72o in the small blind preflop, you should generally fold, because of the betting on future streets. If you were completing all-in, then you would usually have a call. While I don't think you only should teach kids about clear-cut situations, that's where you should start, and that would mean you shouldn't be talking about poker where almost everything depends.

The risk versus reward ratio of suggesting a course on poker says it does not make sense. The reward for doing this as opposed to another class, whether it is the history of/through rock and roll or the theory of the stock market, is minimal. Maybe you'd look back and say it was worth $1000 to teach about poker. The risk includes a significant chance (over 10%, I think) that you will really piss off some parents, administrators, or more senior teachers, and will get fired as a result, even if you make the content completely defensible. In fact, if I were your boss, I'd probably chew you out for suggesting it, even though I'm a mathematician and an advantage gambler. It doesn't sound like you would teach much to the students, or be able to show much progress, and the parents will react the same way as if you teach a class on sexual positions (which would have some value to all, and particularly for those who are considering some level of prostitution).

If you want to teach kids about advantage gambling, teach them about investments and the stock market and finance rather than about poker.

Most poker players lose, and find poker entertaining despite that. That is the primary role poker has in our society: Entertainment for people with money to lose. It is easy to get confused about this, and you shouldn't trust high school students who have never had a normal job to exercise good judgement. I'm very careful about what I tell college students, who are actually adults.