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#11
07-02-2006, 07:17 AM
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Re: Big pot, lots of paint. Very spewful.
Nomad and Aaron - Thanks guys!
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#12
07-02-2006, 12:58 PM
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Re: Big pot, lots of paint. Very spewful.
[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good -- I don't think you fold anything out and I don't think it's a value bet. [/ QUOTE ] This is the only part of what you wrote that I disagree with. It's clearly not a pure value bet, but I think that this is a situation where, if you're not willing to c-bet you might as well just check/fold, to-wit, both of these players are LAP, precisely the type to get into a pissing contest preflop, call one with longshot hands on the flop and fold when it doesn't come in on the turn. This flop is scary enough that any player that doesn't have a piece of it may well give up right there. Saying Hero won't get anything to fold is just being results-oriented. If you get raised on your flop bet, I think you can give it up, especially if the other player is still in, saving yourself the agony of having a king or ace fall on the turn and having to decide what to do.
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#13
07-02-2006, 01:40 PM
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Re: Big pot, lots of paint. Very spewful.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Flop check is good -- I don't think you fold anything out and I don't think it's a value bet. [/ QUOTE ] This is the only part of what you wrote that I disagree with. It's clearly not a pure value bet, but I think that this is a situation where, if you're not willing to c-bet you might as well just check/fold, to-wit, both of these players are LAP, precisely the type to get into a pissing contest preflop, call one with longshot hands on the flop and fold when it doesn't come in on the turn. This flop is scary enough that any player that doesn't have a piece of it may well give up right there. [/ QUOTE ] But I'm not c-betting the turn UI, nor am I calling a river bet UI. I *NEED* to improve in order to go somewhere with this hand and I refuse to pay two bets to see the next card. I will either see the turn for 0 or 1 bets, or I will fold when it's two bets back to me. If I bet, I'm compelled to call a raise, which is doing exactly what I don't want to do. [ QUOTE ] Saying Hero won't get anything to fold is just being results-oriented. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is false. Given the 3-bet preflop, you're REALLY got to hope for TT-99 out of the 3-betting villain or because any combination of two broadway cards (paired or not) will have enough reason to hang around. [ QUOTE ] If you get raised on your flop bet, I think you can give it up, especially if the other player is still in, saving yourself the agony of having a king or ace fall on the turn and having to decide what to do. [/ QUOTE ] See above. I think you've got to call because a flop raise probably means your 4 straight outs are good, and you're getting odds. Even discounting it to 3, you've got to call.
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#15
07-02-2006, 08:00 PM
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Re: Big pot, lots of paint. Very spewful.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] precisely the type to get into a pissing contest preflop, call one with longshot hands on the flop and fold when it doesn't come in on the turn. This flop is scary enough that any player that doesn't have a piece of it may well give up right there. [/ QUOTE ] But I'm not c-betting the turn UI, nor am I calling a river bet UI. [/ QUOTE ] You highlighted the general, and ignored the specific. My point was, these are the types of players we're dealing with. If they DIDN'T hit the flop, it may just be scary enough to get them out right there. If it didn't, you're likely not ahead, even if you make your TP hand. The rest we agree on, your arguments all stem from an overly-narrow quote. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Saying Hero won't get anything to fold is just being results-oriented. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is false. Given the 3-bet preflop, you're REALLY got to hope for TT-99 out of the 3-betting villain or because any combination of two broadway cards (paired or not) will have enough reason to hang around. [/ QUOTE ] I take this back, partly. I think saying a c-bet won't fold anything is giving yourself an excuse for making a weak non-play. As always, a paired flop is harder to hit than normal, so I don't see why you wouldn't c-bet as you were (correctly) the preflop capper. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you get raised on your flop bet, I think you can give it up, especially if the other player is still in, saving yourself the agony of having a king or ace fall on the turn and having to decide what to do. [/ QUOTE ] See above. I think you've got to call because a flop raise probably means your 4 straight outs are good, and you're getting odds. Even discounting it to 3, you've got to call. [/ QUOTE ] Being raised on this flop, combined with the preflop action, makes me think that Hero is shooting for the worst possible strong hand this board will make, and all of Hero's outs have to be discounted heavily, either because they improve somebody else more than they improve Hero, or, at best, we're playing against our own hand for half the pot.
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#16
07-02-2006, 08:14 PM
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Re: Big pot, lots of paint. Very spewful.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Saying Hero won't get anything to fold is just being results-oriented. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is false. Given the 3-bet preflop, you're REALLY got to hope for TT-99 out of the 3-betting villain or because any combination of two broadway cards (paired or not) will have enough reason to hang around. [/ QUOTE ] I take this back, partly. I think saying a c-bet won't fold anything is giving yourself an excuse for making a weak non-play. As always, a paired flop is harder to hit than normal, so I don't see why you wouldn't c-bet as you were (correctly) the preflop capper. [/ QUOTE ] Why do we c-bet? It's mostly about winning the pot immediately, increasing the chances of winning the pot later (by knocking out a villain or two), and sometimes it's for value. The problem is that the chances of any of these happening is quite small based on the flop texture. Most of the time, a c-bet is called for. I think this flop is an exceptional case because *EVERY* two broadway card combination calls a bet. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you get raised on your flop bet, I think you can give it up, especially if the other player is still in, saving yourself the agony of having a king or ace fall on the turn and having to decide what to do. [/ QUOTE ] See above. I think you've got to call because a flop raise probably means your 4 straight outs are good, and you're getting odds. Even discounting it to 3, you've got to call. [/ QUOTE ] Being raised on this flop, combined with the preflop action, makes me think that Hero is shooting for the worst possible strong hand this board will make, and all of Hero's outs have to be discounted heavily, either because they improve somebody else more than they improve Hero, or, at best, we're playing against our own hand for half the pot. [/ QUOTE ] A player who flopped a hand that has hero in bad bad shape will often wait until the turn to make a play. Therefore, a flop raise here is often good news for hero's straight outs. Fearing running into exactly another AK to chop is a little much, especially since there are three players in the pot, so you're still making money when you chop.
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