When should I give up?

cartman · #1 04-20-2006, 03:10 PM

I open raise in the CO with something that will have little or no showdown value unimproved, say J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Folded to the big blind who calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He checks, ????

I am unsure about this situation in general more so than this specific hand. I have very little or no showdown value, and the turn card is such that he can use the same excuse to justify a turn call that he used to justify his flop call.

For those of you who bet in these spots, would you give up if the turn were a card such as a club, a 5, or and 8 which improved one or more of his possible flopped draws?

I would also appreciate any thoughts regarding which types of opponents I should be inclined to bet the turn against and which types I should just give up against.

Thanks,
Cartman

The Bryce · #2 04-20-2006, 03:14 PM

Just depends on the guy. Some guys like to peel dry flops and fold the turn UI and don't seem to mind. Some guys absolutely will not let you win a dry flop like this UI without a fight. Other guys are just idiot chasers and want to see a river card. So it just depends.

If you have absolutely no read then I'd bet again to try and establish one.

Derek123 · #3 04-20-2006, 04:27 PM

I usually bet flop check turn, and probably check behind on the flop more often then fire two bets into this small pot.

Guruman · #4 04-20-2006, 04:56 PM

i think this is a thoroughly interesting question that I wish I had an answer to as well.

Guruman · #5 04-20-2006, 05:03 PM

villain has

1)a monster that he's waiting for the turn to pop
2)a flush draw
3)a pair
4)air (maybe overs)

1)we should check
2)we should probably check
3)we should probably check
4)we should bet

so overall it looks like a check
---------
of course the problem comes on the river blank when we get led into.

1)we should pitch
2)we may be able to raise or call
3)we should pitch
4)we may be able to raise or call

--------------

just a quick look says that we may want to just check behind and fold the river donk, but the player in me hates missing the opportunity to make Q or K hi fold out on the turn. The real question is whether our villain will A)have a foldable hand and B)be willing to fold it often enough for us to fire again.

The answer? his blind defense range.

Surf · #6 04-20-2006, 05:48 PM

Cartman,

this is a tough spot, and one I probably misplay as well. Of late, I've taken a kind of cop-out and fired a 2nd barrel when villains fold to flop bet % is low, meaning he peels very light. If he's a reasonable player and I expect him to have some sort of realistic draw etc, then i'm checking behind and i'm done with the hand unless I improve.

That said there are a number of tags who will peel this type of flop and fold the turn, with either A-hi or overs, so if you can identify them it's best to fire again.

Surf

Grisgra · #7 04-20-2006, 06:03 PM

I generally read them for an ISD or overs, and fire again on the turn. I will sometimes check the turn, and then if checked to, bet the river -- if they take the lead on the river it's generally over for me, but I'll occasionally throw in an unsuccessful bluff-raise.

redbeard · #8 04-20-2006, 11:33 PM

i think the first stat i look at in this situation is the villan's check raise %. if it is high i'm definately checking and giving up on the river ui and he will auto bet it if his turn cr is high. if this player has a low turn cr number and a modest went to showdown number then i would be inclinded to fire on the turn. this type of player is typically very passive and peels lots of flops but is capable of folding before the showdown. a very rare beast indeed, but if you can find him don't leave that table until you can't keep your eyes open.

Subfallen · #9 04-21-2006, 12:00 AM

The correct default line here depends HEAVILY on your precise CO opening range. Do you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The Bryce · #10 04-21-2006, 12:06 AM

Looking at his c/r percentage is silly. That's one of those stats that tells you a lot about nothing and you shouldn't ever look at. Does he check-raise a lot with strong holdings? Does he semi-bluff a lot?

What you do in this spot, like I said, is entirely opponent dependent. Just remember: if they're going to fight you for it there's no way for you to win. If that's the case, don't start that fight with nothing and figure out how to make the best of it instead.