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  #21  
Old 11-22-2007, 03:42 PM
maxtower maxtower is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

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I think you will have a hard time convincing them of voting for Ron Paul if you've already tried and failed. Ron Paul is too extreme for most people, which is also his biggest concern for the election.

May I ask who they currently are thinking of voting for?

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Their current thoughts are to vote in the Democratic primary for someone besides Hillary in the hopes that she gets booted. I think the average Republican is really scared of her right now.

They admitted they don't have a huge republican preference right now, and are on board with RP's fiscal responsibility (they hate paying for everything) and his border policy. The biggest hurdles I have to overcome are the underdog thing and the terrorist thing. They are really scared of terrorists and want the government to do something about it.

Obviously I understand the flawed logic in only voting for the favorites, but its tough for me to explain.

Also its hard for me to describe how doing nothing as opposed to doing something is better for the terrorism problem. Remember its hard for to unwind social programming of many years filled with "America the Beautiful," and "One nation under god." They see America as the good guys and Arabs as bad guys. They want the US gov't to actively protect them.
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  #22  
Old 11-22-2007, 03:47 PM
maxtower maxtower is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

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The DHS has nothing to do with protecting us from terrorists. What was so bad about our military and intelligence services that they couldn't protect us before? The purpose of DHS is to increase executive power, and create more buerocracy.


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This is a pretty good angle. "Got to stay focused on a singular objective and not spread ourselves too thin. Bringing the military home to guard the borders....etc"
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  #23  
Old 11-22-2007, 05:04 PM
iggymcfly iggymcfly is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

1. On the "he can't win" thing, point out that no pro-war Republican can possibly win the election. 70% of the country is against the war in Iraq and they'll vote for the perceived anti-war candidate no matter what. (Even if in Hillary's case, she's going to do zero to actually end anything.) Say that Ron Paul's the only candidate who can actually win.

2. The second one's harder since she's so far off-base that she might be hard to straighten out. I think you might have to actually explain some things in-depth. Point out that the other Republican candidates are in favor of basically starting a war in Iran. If the United States (eventually) ends up occupying another country, it will spread the military to its absolute breaking point, making Americans less safe, and will also bring hatred of the US to record levels in the Muslim world. Point out that ideologies such as that of the Chinese are much more opposed to Islam than our own, but that we're hated due to our military industrial complex.

Say the only way we'll ever be safe is if we withdraw from these foreign entanglements and focus on protecting our own citizens. If you're committed to your views, and you spend enough time confidently repeating something rational, you can usually sway someone who just builds their views on what they see in the media. This doesn't work on an average person since you never get enough time, but on someone who you're close to, as soon as you get more time talking to them than they've had time watching the television, you can usually change their views.
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  #24  
Old 11-22-2007, 05:36 PM
Ron Burgundy Ron Burgundy is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

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Their current thoughts are to vote in the Democratic primary for someone besides Hillary in the hopes that she gets booted. I think the average Republican is really scared of her right now.

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I don't understand this at all. What do they think is so bad about Hillary? She's most similar to the neo-cons of any dem. She's said she would have no plans to withdraw troops from Iraq at least by the end her first term.
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  #25  
Old 11-22-2007, 11:13 PM
maxtower maxtower is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Their current thoughts are to vote in the Democratic primary for someone besides Hillary in the hopes that she gets booted. I think the average Republican is really scared of her right now.

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I don't understand this at all. What do they think is so bad about Hillary? She's most similar to the neo-cons of any dem. She's said she would have no plans to withdraw troops from Iraq at least by the end her first term.

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They don't think about it on this level. They just probably here how awful she is from their republican buddies. NeoCons have done a good job of fooling the masses into thinking that they spend less money than Democrats. Apparently all you have to do is lower taxes and borrow to make up the difference.

Its kind of funny because most uninformed Republicans I know hate Democrats because they spend too much money. In reality, both parties spend too much.

Uninformed Democrats that I meet are really typically concentrate on abortion laws which don't really impact the majority of Americans, at least not as much as fiscal policy.

Both parties have done excellent jobs at shifting concerns to unimportant issues, or blaming the other party for the important issue. They are covering up the fact that our gov't is corrupt, sells out to big business, and for the most part completely uninterested in working for the masses.
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  #26  
Old 11-23-2007, 12:06 AM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

Have them watch RPs speeches on youtube.

/endthread

Also, I would suggest pointing out that people engaged in peaceful protest can be declared enemy combatents under the Patriot Act.
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  #27  
Old 11-23-2007, 12:52 AM
Phil153 Phil153 is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

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Government is incompetent at everything they do, and defense is no different.

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Bad tactic imo. No sane person believes this. You just come across as unreasonable and dogmatic.

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The point of this thread was to help OP convince his parents. He didn't even care if the stuff was true or not, and was just looking for a way to say stuff to them. Pay attention to the OP if you're determined to respond here.

As AlexM said, plenty of "sane" people do believe that centralized planning is inherently inefficient. There's nothing dogmatic about that. That's not the point of this thread though. The point is to offer quick and dirty tips for OP. Save your lame attacks for other threads.

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Actually, I am being helpful and relevant to the OP. Pay attention please. Say this statement to 10 random people and ask them what they think of it.

All of my friends and family would instantly label someone as an idiot if they made a statement like this - given the commonly understood meaning of incompetent. You're trying to convince a non believer here, not offer up poorly worded and dubious logic that will only appeal to converts.
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  #28  
Old 11-23-2007, 01:20 AM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Help me debate my Mom and sister - RP related

Ugh, maybe "all of your friends and family" aren't "normal media trusting folks" who are "uninformed" and lean favorably to "fiscal conservatism" for whom "the simplest explanation is the best here."

It's obvious that your response to me was nothing more than a thinly veiled "Wahhh simplistic dogma watch me pick an argument out of nothing." I offered my best advice to OP. Your reply to him (and your subsequent replies to me) suggest that you seem to have totally missed the target audience he was getting at.

Most fiscally conservative neocon types I talk to DO respond strongly to phrases like "the government is incompetent," "the government couldn't run a K-Mart," etc. They love that stuff. They just decide that it somehow goes out the window when and where they say it does, such as when wars on terror need to be fought. So by reminding them of their general distrust of government, it's a good way to get their thoughts on the right track without being too complicated.

If OP said he was looking for a sophisticated argument, then I would have given him either a different answer or no answer at all. I have some experience talking to my neocon friends and family, and stand by my advice here pretty strongly. OP knows his family better than any of us though, so he can take it fwiw and will obviously be using his own words anways.

Have a good Thanksgiving, Phillip.
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