Another 4XX hands, another -102BB. Once again I seek help.

SpaceAce · #1 07-23-2006, 09:45 AM

Yet another -100+BB session at -22BB/100. Next stop BUSTO, so I am playing a desperate game of "find the leaks", hoping to plug them before BUSTO gets here.

Am I calling down too much with overpairs and top pairs in these hands?

Hand #1:
Villain is a bit of a tard, but not totally irrational.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero... Calls down? Just gives up now? ...calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (13BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Since I didn't fold the turn, can I fold the river unimproved? In this case, I "improved" to beat T9 and I am still ahead of a worse Ace, but is it enough to call the river bet?

Results:
Final pot: 15BB
SB Shows 5d 5h
========
Hand #2:
Villain will raise any pair on the flop, no matter what the previous action and can always be counted on to bet when checked to once he gets started. Villain would definitely have reraised TT pre-flop in this hand.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Button folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2.67SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Villain will definitely bet the turn.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.33BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Oh, what the hell. I've probably got him crushed and there's no real danger of him checking the river.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.33BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero pukes in his mouth, but villain would have reraised TT pre-flop, so hero caps, BB calls.

River cap out of line?

Results:
Final pot: 13.33BB
Hero Shows 4s 4d
BB Shows 6s 5s
========
Hand #3:
Villain is aggressive with TAGgish stats but seems to play a little stupidly against me at times. For the most part, he's not getting far out of line.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero calls, SB raises, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8SB, 3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (10BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero... calls? Raising and folding are both ridiculous, right?

Is folding here ever correct, given that this player is reasonable and his actions just scream KK? My head tells me call but my heart is telling me to just start folding in these spots because they always have exactly what I think they have.

Results:
Final pot: 12BB
SB Shows Kc Kd
========
Hand #4:
CO is a bit of a dolt but isn't going to go off for a bunch of bets on big streets without a legitimate hand. Button is a bit of a LAGgy dingus but not braindead.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, CO 3-bets, Button caps, 2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (13.67SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (12.83BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero... calls? Folds?

I don't beat anything, right? Just give up now?

SpaceAce

Peter Harris · #2 07-23-2006, 09:54 AM

Hand 1: fine, Hero loses to A5 or 59 or some such crap.

Hand 2: cap eet up, i only really fear T5, villain may have slowplayed the turn with that.

Hand 3: A river raise isn't that bad, work out KK and QQ versus AK and AQ and KQ and it's close. what makes it a no-no is you have to call a 3bet if raised and that makes me feel queasy. Or maybe that's the fried egg sandwich i just had.

Hand 4: easy fold, especially with CO preflopraiser behind to act still.

Caddy_4_Life · #3 07-23-2006, 12:47 PM

Hand 1: Good hand. You must call the river. It was a good card for you! Why would you ever think of folding 2-pair on a non flush/straight board HU in a blind stealing battle?

Hand 2: Not check/raising this turn is a very very large error. In fact an error that can cost you 2-4 BB most the time. This Villain is saying to you let's go to war. The goal in your mind should be to collect 6-8 on the turn and river total. It should go something like this Hero checks, Villain bets, hero raises, villain raises, hero raises, Villain calls. Turn card- hero bets, villain raises, hero can now call for fear of it getting capped. Villain will show you 5x, JJ-AA, or a flush way too often not to play this hand like this. Flush's are big hands HU.

Hand 3: Quite honestly man, I think raising the river is better than folding but calling is optimal.

Hand 4: Given that your up against two LAGs who probably have a very wide raise/3bet/cap range, I think check/calling down from the turn in this monster pot if I'm not calling two bets on any street is best. We're potentially getting 15:1 on the turn to call for a set! We're not closing the action but I wouldn't fear it getting raised too much. If it gets check/raised by CO, I fold the river UI.

-Caddy

SpaceAce · #4 07-23-2006, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4: easy fold, especially with CO preflopraiser behind to act still.

[/ QUOTE ]

That hand bothers me because I really believed I should fold, but I didnt.

SpaceAce

SpaceAce · #5 07-23-2006, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Good hand. You must call the river. It was a good card for you! Why would you ever think of folding 2-pair on a non flush/straight board HU in a blind stealing battle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because of the action. I don't know if I am just running gut-sickeningly bad or what, but I really can't remember the last time I got check-raised on the turn and won with a TPTK type hand. I was really hoping he had AQ or T9 or something, but I really expected to see AT or better.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Not check/raising this turn is a very very large error.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played that hand in a very unusual manner for me. 99.9% of the time, more bets go in way before the river. I just had a little voice in my head telling me to do something different this time.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: Quite honestly man, I think raising the river is better than folding but calling is optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't even imagine raising there. Other people might get value from it, but I am beat at least 100% of the time, if not more.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4: Given that your up against two LAGs who probably have a very wide raise/3bet/cap range, I think check/calling down from the turn in this monster pot if I'm not calling two bets on any street is best. We're potentially getting 15:1 on the turn to call for a set! We're not closing the action but I wouldn't fear it getting raised too much. If it gets check/raised by CO, I fold the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sort of what I told myself as I called down. Honestly, though, I think it's a fold. I thought it at the time, too, but I just didn't do it. I've got KK in a three-way capped pot and now there's both an Ace and a Queen on the board. I think I'm sunk very nearly always.

SpaceAce

Caddy_4_Life · #6 07-23-2006, 01:33 PM

Ya downswings suck. It plays with your mind and confidence. I've been playing a lot of late night Party games and I leaned towards a call which surely could be incorrect in Hand 4 because of hands like this I've been seing very frequently:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button raises, Hero folds, MP calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Button bets, MP calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below: 
MP has Qd 8d (two pair, queens and twos).
Button has Jh Kd (one pair, twos).
Outcome: MP wins 13.50 BB. 

------

I do think folding in your Hand 4 may be correct now though as I overlooked the times your drawing dead on the turn to AA, which could be as high as 20%.

-Caddy

MacGuyV · #7 07-23-2006, 01:35 PM

OMG consider quitting poker.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #8 07-23-2006, 01:46 PM

This is why I always have a 2000BB roll for whatever limit im playing. It keeps me from going crazy when this kind of [censored] happens.

Regis · #9 07-23-2006, 01:50 PM

1. Fold
2. 3-Bet the flop while your still ahead. Bet or raise the turn. This will help define your opponents hand if he comes over the top.
3. Call even though he probably has KK. Pot is too big to fold for one bet.
4. Meh. Pot big again. Worth a call.

Caddy_4_Life · #10 07-23-2006, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Fold

[/ QUOTE ]

You fold even though it's a blind steal battle and that river card has counterfeited some of Villain's hands?

[ QUOTE ]
2. 3-Bet the flop while your still ahead. Bet or raise the turn. This will help define your opponents hand if he comes over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how we can better define Villain's hand by 3-betting the flop or raising the turn. I like the turn raise but not for information, but purely value. 3-banging the flop may make Villain fold a hand we want him to stay in and on the turn I think it's impossible to define as Villain could have flush, 5x, or boat. Lots of strong hands got made. It's HU so Villain isn't putting you on a full house.

-Caddy