Some more hands, per advice given in the last thread

SpaceAce · #1 07-18-2006, 11:54 AM

First off, thanks to everyone who commented on the hands in my other thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0#Post6570087). I think you guys did catch some subtle signs of scared play on my part and helped me to keep an eye out for those errors.

In the other thread, some suggestions were made about how I could maximize value/minimize loss. Also, it was suggested that I cut down on the number of tables I was playing. So, I played a single table of $3/$6 tonight and barfed 90BB into the game in 445 hands. These were my top losers.

Hand #1:

Three-handed. Villain is a nutjob (71/52). He will always reraise/cap with any pair when raised/three-bet on the flop. He routinely three-bets hands like 79o, J3o, Q6s, etc, pre-flop. He generally backs off after the flop if his opponent is not letting up, but occasionally gets out of line on big streets.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.67SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.33BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.33BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero... calls?

After all the strength I've shown and the board pairing, I really don't like my hand when he check-raises the river. Am I really good often enough to pay off? I don't think he can possibly expect me to fold.

Results:
Final pot: 12.33BB
BB Shows 6d 6c
========

Hand #2:

Villain in this hand is 70/18 with a 53% WTSD. He's also a serial donker with hands like weak top pair, flush draws, etc.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7.67SB, 3 players)
UTG bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.33BB, 3 players)
UTG bets, CO folds, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero... calls?

In a hand I posted yesterday, people suggested I just call the turn donk. I raised this time because this player is a serial donker. Can I get away right now, when I get three-bet? I am pretty sure he plays a flopped set harder, but he could have TT or 79.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (14.33BB, 2 players)
UTG bets, Hero... calls?

Should I just fold the river unimproved or is the pot too big for that?

Results:
Final pot: 16.33BB
UTG Shows 6d Td
========

Hand #3:

I played this hand terribly. Villain is (I believe) a 2+2er and a regular in the game. I have about 1,500 hands with him showing him losing ~5Bb/100. I don't consider him a fish or a donator but I don't consider him much of a threat, either.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Button folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Just fold it right here? I routinely call or reraise with any pair in this position. I think this player can be moved off an unpaired hand or a weak pair by the turn.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2.67SB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

I never, ever do this, but what the hell, it's heads-up. He probably doesn't have spades, right? I figure I can get at least one big bet out of him by waiting for the turn.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.33BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero... caps?, SB calls.

Sigh, I'm such a moron. I told myself it could be an overpair, it could be A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T, AA[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], etc. Really, calling down heads-up with a set just seemed too weak and I wanted to get value in case he had an overpair with a spade or something similar.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10.33BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero... calls?

Do I really beat a reasonable opponent more than 1:10 times?

Results:
Final pot: 12.33BB
SB Shows Qs Ks
========

Hand #4:

Villain in this hand is the nutcase from hand #1.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Button folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

I'm a monster favorite over this guy's range, so I cap. Good?

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.33SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.67BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero... calls?

The pot is small and my backdoor flush draw didn't materialize. Should I go ahead and just give up here? This guy doesn't have to have a Queen or better here, but considering the pre-flop action, his flop raise worries me.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.67BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero... calls?

Results:
Final pot: 8.67BB
BB Shows Qd Kc

How terrible was the spewage in hand #3? Pretty bad, huh? I question almost every decision I made in these hands. Remember, I didn't hand-pick these, they were simply my losingest hands of the session.

SpaceAce

econophile · #2 07-18-2006, 12:15 PM

Hand 1: You can't fold the fiver, and checking behind loses too much value, so bet call is good. Given your read, the flop cap looks OK.

Hand 2: Even serial donkers make hands sometimes, and raising the turn opens you up to being 3-bet. Now you've got a tough decision. If villain only three bets with very strong hands, you can fold, but if he also 3-bets draws or bottom 2, you must call. I would raise the turn if I trusted villain enough to fold to a 3-bet and just call otherwise. The river is the worst possible card and you should only call if you think villain 3-bets turn with air. You should be calling most river cards, though, when you call the turn.

Hand 3: Raise the flop. Villain could have many things and may give you action drawing slim. The turn decision to cap or call is read dependent. You can't fold on the river.

Hand 4: Against this opponent, you must take hands like this (2nd pair top kicker) to showdown. After he raises you on the flop, calling down is fine.

Genesis · #3 07-18-2006, 12:22 PM

I didn't read the other thread but I think you are overly aggressive.

1. I call the flop 3bet and call down from there unless I hit. No sense in pushing a marginal hand against this maniac, just get to showdown. Save the aggression for when you have top pair or better IMO.

2. I probably just call the turn donk. Sure he may be preventing a free card, but he could also have two pair or better and really make you pay. Bet river if checked to.

3. Raise flop or call turn 3bet. Capping the turn seems a bit too much there. Call river.

4. Looks good.

Disconnected · #4 07-18-2006, 02:53 PM

Hand 1: Given your read, I think you played it fine. You've got to make that value bet on the river, and against a wacko, you've got to call the raise, I think. The only street I would change, and I'm not sure it's correct, is the flop, where I might not cap. Mostly because I wouldn't want to slow him down if he is getting out of line, plus you'll get more action if you improve. But given the guy's tendencies, I really have no problem with the cap.

Hand 2: I like just calling the turn donk, given that CO just folded. He just got raised by one guy and 3-bet by another, and doesn't seem to give a crap. If you entered the turn HU already, I'd like a raise better, since he could be semibluffing as well as donking an improved hand, but I still probably call it down. I'm trying to not be influenced by the fact that I knnow you lost this hand. But one thing I think I do wrong personally is to continue pushing TP hands really hard on the later streets. There are places for it, but I don't think this is one of them.

Hand 3: With the assumption that a 2p2'er on ABS is going to be stealing on the light side from SB, I would 3-bet to punish the steal attempt. It's a marginal defending hand, and sometimes I would fold it. For instance, if I think my continuation bet would get no credibility at all (as sometimes happens when you're down for the session), I might let it go. A lot of times even if I don't get a fold, I'll try to get to SD cheaply, but I'd like to have the chance to fold him out. On the flop, the pot is small, so I don't think calling this in position is terrible, even with the flush draw out there. On the other hand, if you raise, a decent player may think you're FOS (taking a stab on a flop that's likely to have missed the preflop raiser) or semibluffing a flush draw. In general, you are going to want action on this hand, and your read was that you could push him off a hand. Will you get more action slowplaying or just raising the flop? I don't know, really -- it's kind read dependent. The first raise on the turn is OK, but I don't like the cap. I guess you need to make the call on the river with the pot so big, just in case he really was overplaying something or semibluffing a big spade on the turn, and now just making one last play at a big pot. But it wouldn't be hard for someone to convince me that this is a -EV call.

Hand 4: No problem with how you played this hand. You've got to get to SD with MP against these guys (even BP). However, I think there's some inconsistency between how you played vs the same guy in Hand 1 and Hand 4. In the former, you capped a lower MP where you had no draws. Here, you just call the flop raise with a better MP and BD draws to the nut flush and nut straight. If you're going to push flops hard, tend to do it with the latter sorts of hands, I would think (not that I would change the way you played Hand 4).

SpaceAce · #5 07-19-2006, 12:41 AM

Thanks for the replies.

In the KJ hand, the villain is a serial donker. I expected top pair to be good. However, I like the post that explored the difference between going into the turn heads-up and going into the turn three-way. That is a subtle but possibly important difference in this hand.

As for the discrepency between the way I played hand #1 against the nut and the way I played hand #4 against the same guy, the explanation is fairly simple: In hand #1, he had the lead when the flop came down. In hand #2, I capped and led but he raised, anyway. We had had several showdowns by then and I think he must know I have a real hand. When he is the aggressor, he likes to stay aggressive, but he is a touch more passive when you take away the lead.

SpaceAce

Guruman · #6 07-19-2006, 01:07 AM

hand1

I check behind the river. this guy's range is any pair and any draw plus some A hi kind of hands, but my guess is that he'll bluff checkraise this river just about never.

Your read though not mine, but since you're not sure about paying off a checkraise then you should have just shown down.

hand 2:

when a serial donker with a 53% showdown starts donking, I fold top pair just about never. I'd personally raise the river instead of the turn, but whatever. Just show down.

hand 3:

I threebet pf and the rest of the hand changes dramatically.
since you just called, calling the flop is cool - though raising could get you three small bets right away if he has a flush draw.

when he bet-threebets he could have any T, any overpair, any two pair hand, and occasionally just the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I think a cap is entirely legit, as he'll read you for a draw or a pair a big chunk of the time.

river's an easy call given the range that I put him on at the turn.

hand 4:

do not fold ever and probably go to threetown on the flop.

adsman · #7 07-19-2006, 02:01 AM

Hand 1 is interesting. With the given read against this guy I would have become very careful when he meekly check-called the Turn. He sounds a bit like opposite guy. He goes crazy with not much and likes to slow right down when he's got a biggie. I think this is a nice spot to check behind the river and laugh in his face.

SpaceAce · #8 07-19-2006, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hand1

I check behind the river. this guy's range is any pair and any draw plus some A hi kind of hands, but my guess is that he'll bluff checkraise this river just about never.

Your read though not mine, but since you're not sure about paying off a checkraise then you should have just shown down.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought, too, but I think I am missing value bets I should be making. Since I checked behind in one of the hands in the last post and everyone thought I should bet, I decided to take the more aggressive line, here. Of course, in the first hand, the river wasn't a flush card. I guess that's not too relevant, though, since it wasn't the flush that got me.

[ QUOTE ]

hand 2:

when a serial donker with a 53% showdown starts donking, I fold top pair just about never. I'd personally raise the river instead of the turn, but whatever. Just show down.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you don't think a turn raise is out of line? Maybe it's results-oriented, but I suspect the people telling me to call down are correct in this case.

[ QUOTE ]

hand 3:

river's an easy call given the range that I put him on at the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I told myself, too, but I knew it was a flush. I knew it, knew it, knew it. I'm just too stupid and/or weak to act on what I "know".

[ QUOTE ]

hand 4:

do not fold ever and probably go to threetown on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't like my hand when he raised despite me having the lead. I guess calling down is correct, but I really expected to see a Queen here.

Thanks for the reply,
SpaceAce

SpaceAce · #9 07-19-2006, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is interesting. With the given read against this guy I would have become very careful when he meekly check-called the Turn. He sounds a bit like opposite guy. He goes crazy with not much and likes to slow right down when he's got a biggie. I think this is a nice spot to check behind the river and laugh in his face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty sure his turn check-call meant less than a Jack. Like I said, he can slow down with weak hands if you keep coming at him. When the heart hit, I realized his play looked a lot like a flush draw (which, of course, it was not), but I don't want to be missing value bets against people I know are going to show down any pair, so I fired one off. Despite my read on this guy, I really felt like I should fold to the river check-raise but what if... just what it... he has a weaker 8 or an overpair or a Jack or he has decided to make a stone bluff? Sigh.

BUSTO is right around the corner.

SpaceAce