Does he have a hand or is he tired of me raising ?

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would 3bet the flop(if capped call and fold UI), bet the turn and check the river. total of 2.5bbs. your line invested 3bbs.

that is a pretty standard line for me to save a sb on a board like that when i feel like i usually want to showdown. some turns i would check through(OESD for instance).

[/ QUOTE ]

I gotta disagree as I see JJ or other pocket pairs trying to represent the King here often enough. I play it the same as the hero. If villian ever checks after flop play, I check too.

[/ QUOTE ]

if it wasn't capped pf i would agree with you. villain would have to peg us on exactly QQ or AQ for the most part.

[RED_RAIN]

I guess regardless of action, on this type of flop and you having QQ, you are able to not get to showdown and feel good? I just don't like folding here but perhaps I am a showdown clown with QQ.

Think about if you were villain with KT-AK or set, how would you play it for max value?

Then think if you had JJ or 99, how would you play it on the flop?

The more I look at this hand, I think villain has JJ or even QQ.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess regardless of action, on this type of flop and you having QQ, you are able to not get to showdown and feel good? I just don't like folding here but perhaps I am a showdown clown with QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

so how often is our QQ good on a Khigh flop after:

we cap preflop, proceed to bet/3bet the flop, it gets capped and we are lead into on the turn?

often enough to spend 2 more bb's to find out? that's the question, i guess.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
so how often is our QQ good on a Khigh flop after:

we cap preflop, proceed to bet/3bet the flop, it gets capped and we are lead into on the turn?

often enough to spend 2 more bb's to find out? that's the question, i guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if we do not 3 bet the flop as I would not have...

[Mr. Orange]

When I first posted this hand I was tired and battleworn. Today when I had a chance to think about it more objectively it seemed like logical WA/WB situation even when you include the table dynamics.

Then I read James post. My first reaction upon reading this was "no way. that's wrong". (But I often times think that about James posts until I reread them 4-5 times and see the advanced logic.) Now I'm not sure though. I am interesting hearing more about this " Bet/3 bet the flop, fold the turn UI if capped otherwise bet the turn and check river line" and in particular in comparison to WA/WB lines. I have some questions if you don't mind explaining it some more:

1) Why is this better than a WA/WB line? In what situations and against what opponents should this be used. Is it just the saved SB? What about the metagame effects of showing a ton of agression and then folding to a single bet on the turn? What about when an opponent plays back at you with a worse hand?

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding you said the decision to use this line is largely based on the PF cap. Why does that make a difference? You wouldn't use it if it was just 3bets PF?

3) Under what circumstances would you use this line instead of a straight WA/WB line?

4) What about the times when the villain just calls the 3 bets on the flop with a superior hand to trap us later in the hand. If we're check raised on the turn, is this an automatic fold?

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I read James post. My first reaction upon reading this was "no way. that's wrong". (But I often times think that about James posts until I reread them 4-5 times and see the advanced logic.)

[/ QUOTE ]

usually go with your first reaction. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] and it's often necessary to read my posts 4-5 times to understand them because of the remedial grammar, not the advanced logic.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Why is this better than a WA/WB line? In what situations and against what opponents should this be used. Is it just the saved SB? What about the metagame effects of showing a ton of agression and then folding to a single bet on the turn? What about when an opponent plays back at you with a worse hand?

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding you said the decision to use this line is largely based on the PF cap. Why does that make a difference? You wouldn't use it if it was just 3bets PF?

3) Under what circumstances would you use this line instead of a straight WA/WB line?

4) What about the times when the villain just calls the 3 bets on the flop with a superior hand to trap us later in the hand. If we're check raised on the turn, is this an automatic fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

1)i like it because we have position, and we can use that position to save a sb in getting to showdown. i don't think the flop gets capped very often so i'm not sure how concerned i am at that occurring. versus this opponent even if we're smoked(AK, KK, TT)he's going to call our 3bet and c/r the turn a good portion of the time. as far as metagame goes during the occurrences that we don't get to showdown, simply adjust for it. IOW, next time we are going to need to showdown. if there's some history with us at this table or vs. this villain that has led to our folding in a similar situation previously, i would opt to always showdown here. i am assuming this is not the case, though.

2)i use this line frequently in situations that didn't involve a cap pf. for instance i have 99 on a J73 board or KK on an AT6 board and i raised or 3bet pf and while HU get c/r on the flop by an aggressive player.

3)i usually go into WA/WB when OOP.

4)if we get c/r on the turn it is usually a fold. if a jack comes i would probably check the turn with our OESD. other cards will come that could lend to our being c/r as a semibluff by villain so these must be considered, but usually its an automuck if raised(once again assuming we haven't been folding alot).