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| View Poll Results: Which play impressed you more? | |||
| Doyle's fold of QQ after the flop on a board of rags vs. Reese's KK |
   
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66 | 60.00% |
| Sexton's call on the turn and the river against Matusow with bottom pair, crappy kicker |
  
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44 | 40.00% |
| Voters: 110. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#51
10-31-2007, 02:28 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What's the benefit of cc-shove over cr? [/ QUOTE ] Villain real equity is a lot lower on the turn than flop. I.E. We have more fold equity. [/ QUOTE ] ummm ours is more affected.... [/ QUOTE ] Yeah our real equity is more affected but the real equity we give up by opting to NOT c/r is outweighed by the Fold Equity we gain when our opponent's real equity decreases. Meaning villain might stack off with AK if we bet this flop but he's folding if we c/r. Similarly, villain will usually bet this flop with overs when checked too. But shove to a turn push on a non-Ace/King turn. The FE we gain outweighs the RE we lose. 
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#52
10-31-2007, 02:32 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
only against club draws, a small part of his range.
stop thinking villain is likely to shove AK, he isn't. Also, you really think he's ever going to call a push if we do cr? Unlikely.
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#53
10-31-2007, 02:33 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
LOL.
The only difference between c/r and c/c shove is that you fold out draws when they miss on the turn. But if he has overs and a draw there is a 1 in 3 chance he makes a pair or completes his draw on the turn. So on the turn, there is a 33% chance he's made his draw or made the best hand. Now obviously, he won't necessarily know his hand is good if he pairs his random overs in this situation, but he'll either A) call because your line is weird and he is a station, or B) call because he thinks he has odds w/ a combo draw. This guy is calling with too wide a range preflop, so punish him by cbetting. Don't overthink things.
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#54
10-31-2007, 02:40 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
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only against club draws, a small part of his range. stop thinking villain is likely to shove AK, he isn't. Also, you really think he's ever going to call a push if we do cr? Unlikely. [/ QUOTE ] The AK hand is an example. The majority of villains hands are weak made hands/overcards/and overcards +gutshots. This is exactly why c/c flop, shove turn is the best line. Your argument is that the only hands we gain FE from with the c/c line are club draws. I am saying this is not true, weak made hands will fold MUCH more on the turn then on the flop.
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#55
10-31-2007, 02:43 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
C/r is waaaay better than bet/call for reasons spdlimits stated. We have to bet over pot to get odds for bet/call anyway. I don't know what the mad rush on all the c/call replies was all about. It's good if your a fish. It's terrible, lol.
And yes he folds a ton of his range to our c/raise. I dunno why noone thinks we don't have FE either w/ the c/raise.
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#56
10-31-2007, 02:46 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
[ QUOTE ]
LOL. The only difference between c/r and c/c shove is that you fold out draws when they miss on the turn. But if he has overs and a draw there is a 1 in 3 chance he makes a pair or completes his draw on the turn. So on the turn, there is a 33% chance he's made his draw or made the best hand. Now obviously, he won't necessarily know his hand is good if he pairs his random overs in this situation, but he'll either A) call because your line is weird and he is a station, or B) call because he thinks he has odds w/ a combo draw. This guy is calling with too wide a range preflop, so punish him by cbetting. Don't overthink things. [/ QUOTE ] 1 in 3 chance? Those odds are WAY off. Try more like 5-6outs on one street which is approximately ~10-12%. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying he has something like QJ he still ONLY has 10 outs which is like 21%. Not even close to 33%.. This is a horrible board to c-bet on as I just stated. My range misses this board completely so a c-bet is going to get looked up at a higher frequency. It has nothing to do with overthinking, it has to do with hand ranges.
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#58
10-31-2007, 02:52 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
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If we go for c/call-shv and he just checks flop what are we doing on say a 2 turn?? [/ QUOTE ] check. for the same reason b/c is the worst line
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#59
10-31-2007, 03:38 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
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[ QUOTE ] not picking on you i'm just saying that just because your line is better than a bad line doesn't make it satisfactory. You were the one that started the whole searching for "optimal lines" and "maximizing expectation" banter so follow through and write off all lines which don't fit that description. [/ QUOTE ] b/c is the worst line c/r is an OK line but not the best/worst. c/c the flop, shove certain turns is the best line. shove any J/Q/K/A turn. I actually like checking if I make my straight because it gives villain another chance to bluff or bet his weak made hand. Against tougher opponents I would just shove any turn after c/cing the flop. [/ QUOTE ] this seems so bad. How are u gonna get to the turn with an AKQJ by c/c flop with overs(?) and then decide u want to bet it for yourself? Makes NO SENSE AT ALL. I think the c/r line is definitely the best line to take here.
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#60
10-31-2007, 03:58 PM
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Re: 100NL 3bet Pot C/R
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] not picking on you i'm just saying that just because your line is better than a bad line doesn't make it satisfactory. You were the one that started the whole searching for "optimal lines" and "maximizing expectation" banter so follow through and write off all lines which don't fit that description. [/ QUOTE ] b/c is the worst line c/r is an OK line but not the best/worst. c/c the flop, shove certain turns is the best line. shove any J/Q/K/A turn. I actually like checking if I make my straight because it gives villain another chance to bluff or bet his weak made hand. Against tougher opponents I would just shove any turn after c/cing the flop. [/ QUOTE ] this seems so bad. How are u gonna get to the turn with an AKQJ by c/c flop with overs(?) and then decide u want to bet it for yourself? Makes NO SENSE AT ALL. I think the c/r line is definitely the best line to take here. [/ QUOTE ] Overs are in his range but that's not all his range is. In fact c/c flop, shoving ANY turn is better than c/r flop simply because it is unlikely he will improve enough on the turn to where he can call a shove. Where as by c/ring the flop we let hands with a lot of equity against us coin flip for stacks. I think you assume that if a J/Q/K/A comes on the turn, it helped villain. This is definitely not true.
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