Standard Parent Question

[Blarg]

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And though its nebulous and just my own biased background, I think a truly good parent, or good life for a child, really has little to do with money once you get past the poverty line. It has to do with family, love, being there for each other. If you're born into that, no matter how young your parents, you have the roots for success in life.

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The problem is, we have to admit that many of us won't be particularly good parents. We may not realize it before we have kids, nor while raising them, nor after what's done is done. Thinking you'll be a good parent is a wonderful optimism that I would wish on anyone, but by my definition, at least, they're probably not all that common.

The problem is, having good roots counts for a lot less than it used to. With the way the economy has been polarizing for so long, with the middle class shrinking and jobs being exported, America is becoming a far less economically secure place for our children than it was for us and our fathers and even grandfathers.

The problem is, for the kids, that they are in a decades-long race to compete with other kids for the good careers, and starting out with the right footing is extremely important.

Public schools are fairly disastrous in many places, even in middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods. A kid lucky enough to go to a top public school is in the vast minority, and has vastly less to overcome than his peers. A kid in a bad school may not only hardly learn a thing, but never really learn how to learn, period, or understand why that's important. He may become part of a milieu that gives him little chance to catch up to peers that are properly educated and motivated, at school and at home.

College costs are going up tremendously, and have been for a long time. Kids who can afford to get into the best colleges, or perhaps even halfway decent ones at all, will likely be a smaller percentage in the future.

I see America as an increasingly competitive place with great opportunities for those properly groomed to take their place at the top, but with some pretty crushing burdens for those elsewhere. It's so much harder to afford a house than it used to be. College is so much more expensive, and getting a college education doesn't really count for that much even when you get it. Social security, medical care, undoubtedly increased taxes to meet the problems of our over-burdened, over-spent society, even the high costs of more and more mandated insurance, are going to be very tough things for people of moderate means to deal with, especially kids fresh out of school.

It seems to me that raising children can't be taken so casually anymore. It's not enough to be a postman or stay out of jail, if you want to own a home, make an okay living, and retire at a normal age and not in poverty anymore. Kids face a different world that I don't think our society has come fully around to acknowledging yet. Deciding to have kids seems to be a much more serious business than ever, and parents having an excellent head on their shoulders, and taking a very active interest in their kids' lives and development, seems imperative now rather than optional, if they don't want to see their kids' be worse off than they are. Kids having opportunities and a lifestyle as good as or equal to their parents probably used to be felt as a sort of American birthright. We can't take that for granted anymore at all, and so popping out kids just because that's the way it was always done before, and because one might as well just do what they like and hope for the best, seems very outdated to me.

[Conspire]

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My views on life are always changing, but having my parents say that I should do something just makes me want to do the opposite.

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I wish they would tell you to not die of AIDS in the next week.

Or in other words: If you are still so childish to have this attitude, then you probably shouldn't be breeding anytime soon anyway.

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Thanks for the input.

[VoraciousReader]

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My views on life are always changing, but having my parents say that I should do something just makes me want to do the opposite.

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I wish they would tell you to not die of AIDS in the next week.

Or in other words: If you are still so childish to have this attitude, then you probably shouldn't be breeding anytime soon anyway.

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Not a mod of this forum, but I think you took a wrong turn somewhere. OOT is one line up on the sidebar.

[Blarg]

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New mothers can be amazingly smug and think that they have somehow been granted maturity and centrality to the universe's goings-on by popping out a larva.

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Do you ever have anything good to say about women, besides in regards to their looks? Every time women and specifically children come up you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder.

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Are you ever not defensive and generalizing?

I'll say this about women -- they all too often think their sex and any members of it are off limits to criticism. Retaliatory accusations, even when you're not being attacked, such as the one you just made, are strangely enough not that uncommon.

If you said men can be jerks, do you think many men would disagree with you or paint you with the huge clumsy brush of misanthropy just for noting something so clearly true?

If not, why do you think it is okay for you to do that to me?

[daveT]

Abreu, I love your avatar, and somehow it shows your style of posting very well.

Hmmmm.... I don't know what to say about the assertion that two people in love should wait until they are married. This is a challenging assertion. I was not implying that this is the truth. I think that the average couple does not have the maturity to understand everything that they would want. I would see nothing wrong with waiting, and yes, I believe that it would be better. The counter is that waiting will strain the relationship. The counter to that is that if they were truly in love.... but I don't believe in unconditional love. I have seen people with incredible patience, so for some yes, other's no. I do recall stating specifically, that people should not have children before they are 30. If an average couple is married at 24/26 and on average, break up at 30/32, then at 30, they have been around each other long enough to know how their relationship is fairing. I believe that this would be a better alternative than getting married and having a kid withing on or two years.

I already stated that I envy those who's only dream is to have children. If that is your sole dream, then you are probably living in an environment that is built around that idea.

I am creating a shorter window for child-rearing. I do understand that child-wellness and strength is hindered. Women are built with a bio-clock for this, and men's sperm clearly dwindles in potency and health after 35. The question is the trade-off. If you are destroying your child mentally or not feeding it properly, I can't see the difference between waiting or having a child early. The damage will be done either way. Obviously, if you are able to have children at an earlier age, and you life is able to be stable with them, then go for it. I stated that my perspective is probably off because of where I live right now. The statistic that really bothers me more than anything is that 1/8 of children live in poverty, in the richest country in the world. That saddens me, and I am sure that if I had a child at 25, I would only add to this.

Sexual experience is important in my opinion. A couple who was each other's first is probably not going to remain faithful, or happy. It is only natural that two people are going to wonder what else there is. The other extreme is swingers. They probably have too much, and I am not sure what effect a child witnessing this would have. It depends. But I would like to say more than one, but that is an individual choice.

Your last says it about right, but without the sarcasm, it would be spot on.

I hope you notice that I am probably not a good candidate for fatherhood by all that I have posted in this thread. Perhaps I am biased because I don't get a lot of things in life, and don't think others can as well. Sad projection for sure. Posting here helps me gain perspectives I otherwise would not have.

[Blarg]

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I "shouldnt" have kids before 30 because I have less money at 30 than 25, I may want to chase dreams at 29 and kids will hinder that, and I won't realize that I won't attain all my dreams if I have a kid?

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Every decision has its opportunity cost. I don't think DaveT says you won't achieve your dreams. He simply says it will be much harder. That's completely true, if your dreams include things besides having kids.

[Blarg]

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40 years ago, it would be easier to find a decent factory job or something to support your family. The standard of living was higher, and I imagine that people were more willing to give a young father a chance.

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This is certainly true and not something I'd thought about. I'm reticent though to restrict birthing rights essentially based on class. Not to mention what that implies about whether most of the rest of the world, which has a lower standard of living than the US, should have children...

That's all sort of outside of the OP's original point though (and I'm as guilty as any for taking it there). Maybe an interesting post for a new thread?

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The opportunities that will exist for whatever children we have are definitely central to the question of whether we should have children -- or at least that's what I think is the most responsible viewpoint.

[katyseagull]

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I wish they would tell you to not die of AIDS in the next week.

Or in other words: If you are still so childish to have this attitude, then you probably shouldn't be breeding anytime soon anyway.

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Not a mod of this forum, but I think you took a wrong turn somewhere. OOT is one line up on the sidebar.

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Thank you VR. You are right about the tone of this post. This is inappropriate for the Lounge. Nothing wrong with disagreement and vigorous debate in this forum however, Milo, let's not be so rude as to wish AIDS on other loungers please. Thank you.

[Conspire]

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My views on life are always changing, but having my parents say that I should do something just makes me want to do the opposite.

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Pretty sure I have justified myself already in this thread for why I said that. Plus my views are always changing!

[Stagger_Lee]

Unless your parents say that you should do something, in which case your views are predictable.

I find this view hard to swallow for all requests from your parents - but in any case, no need to be so committed to your current views either.