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#1
10-04-2007, 12:53 PM
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AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
This is an AIM conversation that I had w/ a very well respected high stakes player on Tuesday night. I sent him a screen shot of my positional stats since July 1st, which is only a small sample size of ~12,500 hands. (not enough, I know, but I play Bodog and am limited to 3 tables) I can post that screenshot later if there is any interest, but these were our thoughts on how I play and adjustments that he feels that I may need to make. I highly respect his opinion, but I’d like to flesh out more of the information that was shared w/ me so that I can apply it more fully.
From memory, my button win was noticeably lower than my CO and HJ, as well as my pfr% being lower. I’d also like to know everyone’s opinion on the blind play that is talked about. What you consider raising hands when limped to in the BB at an avg table, a tight table and a loose table. Also, any and all advice about playing the button is welcome as I really have a mental block from this position. The AIM names have been changed for his sake to protect his identity, and I changed mine just so that it would be easier to keep up w/ who’s who. Mine is listed on the AIM thread if anyone is curious enough to look it up. Landlord79 (9:49:22 PM): positional stats since July 1 Landlord79 (9:49:36 PM): I'm concerned about my button play ADeepBalla (9:50:03 PM): Uh...yeah Landlord79 (9:49:43 PM): CO and HJ look great Landlord79 (9:50:14 PM): I think that I assume people will play back at me for button raising Landlord79 (9:50:20 PM): or some kind of mental block ADeepBalla (9:51:50 PM): one sec ADeepBalla (9:52:25 PM): you are WICKED nitty Landlord79 (9:52:08 PM): cold calling pf could be a problem, this linked w/ the other stuff from the other pics ADeepBalla (9:52:49 PM): absolutely Landlord79 (9:52:34 PM): 18/8 is nitty? ADeepBalla (9:53:00 PM): limped to you on the button with 77...you raise ADeepBalla (9:53:32 PM): I'd like to see your PF raise # higher Landlord79 (9:53:12 PM): pfr has come up in the last month or so ADeepBalla (9:55:43 PM): my stats on this computer are from 6-handed play...but your net amount won should be increasing as you move toward the button Landlord79 (9:55:59 PM): yeah, button play is screwed up, I open 33 for a raise UTG, but don't like raising limpers from the button w/ it Landlord79 (9:56:09 PM): or even 77 ADeepBalla (9:56:35 PM): No no no no no ADeepBalla (9:56:49 PM): exactly the opposite ADeepBalla (9:57:07 PM): not on Bodog ADeepBalla (9:57:44 PM): and quit leading out from the BB when you flop a piece of it Landlord79 (9:58:46 PM): how do you see that from this one pic? ADeepBalla (9:59:49 PM): vol put $ in pot is low...10%...went to SD is low 17%...ok... ADeepBalla (9:59:57 PM): but you lose a lot of money relatively Landlord79 (9:59:38 PM): i do it, but how do you know that ADeepBalla (10:00:18 PM): ergo: you lead out when you catch a piece of it but then have to give up when you get resistance ADeepBalla (10:00:31 PM): Landlord79 (10:00:36 PM): yeah, fire on uncoordinated boards w/ TP or 2nd pair as long as there are more than 3 other players in the pot ADeepBalla (10:01:04 PM): no no no no no Landlord79 (10:00:59 PM): *no more than ADeepBalla (10:01:40 PM): you are OOP...when you are OOP, you need to be extremely judicious with your bets ADeepBalla (10:02:15 PM): you can check/call and re-evaluate...if someone improves on the turn and you lose the pot...so what Landlord79 (10:02:17 PM): if I bet, I don't get any info Landlord79 (10:02:25 PM): if i don't bet Landlord79 (10:02:31 PM): * ADeepBalla (10:02:52 PM): Q7o with Q high flop...you lead out...bad Landlord79 (10:02:45 PM): dude, I'm gonna argue w/ that Landlord79 (10:02:57 PM): fire, if you meet resistance, you just shut down Landlord79 (10:03:02 PM): I"m not playing 5/10 ADeepBalla (10:03:24 PM): 1618 hands say I'm right Landlord79 (10:03:32 PM): diff w/o blinds is + ADeepBalla (10:03:58 PM): There's tons of times I fold top pair from the blinds Landlord79 (10:04:00 PM): sure, but with few opp and a dead board, you should fire ADeepBalla (10:04:41 PM): raised pot you shouldn't be in ADeepBalla (10:04:52 PM): unraised pot...YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO HAS WHAT Landlord79 (10:04:44 PM): yeah, that's been a +EV adjustment that I have made in the last few months Landlord79 (10:04:57 PM): hence the reason for a probe bet Landlord79 (10:05:24 PM): if you check, you get absolutely no info Landlord79 (10:05:40 PM): a LP player will bet a checked pot w/ air often, then where are you at? ADeepBalla (10:06:06 PM): If you led out from the blinds in a limped pot against me on the button, I'd raise you and you'd be lost. Landlord79 (10:06:09 PM): you gonna raise a nit like me? Landlord79 (10:06:14 PM): i only bet w/ the goods ADeepBalla (10:06:58 PM): I'm just saying, your OOP play looks like an easy leak to fix Landlord79 (10:06:49 PM): you may be right, I just learn best by arguing Landlord79 (10:06:59 PM): what are you looking at to see that? ADeepBalla (10:07:22 PM): It's like AA...you either win a small pot or lose a big one ADeepBalla (10:08:00 PM): I'm looking at your PF raise #s and your net amount #s. They should be gradually increasing as you move toward the button Landlord79 (10:08:05 PM): i think the button is my problem here, not my BB play Landlord79 (10:08:13 PM): you expect to lose money in the blinds ADeepBalla (10:08:50 PM): And how is it that you only raise 4% of the time from the BB? ADeepBalla (10:09:02 PM): JJ-AK = 3% Landlord79 (10:09:02 PM): yeah, I don't like to raise out of the blinds unless I can resteal or I have a big hand Landlord79 (10:09:17 PM): I like fit or fold from the blinds because you're OOP Landlord79 (10:09:38 PM): I'll check up to JJ in a limped pot ADeepBalla (10:10:03 PM): but you're apparently willing to commit $ with 40% of your hands from the SB...in the WORST possible position ADeepBalla (10:10:37 PM): check up to JJ...no no no no ADeepBalla (10:10:55 PM): AJs+, 88+ Landlord79 (10:10:38 PM): committing 1/2 a BB with >5 to 1 odds is quite appealing Landlord79 (10:10:56 PM): why raise and play a big pot OOP? ADeepBalla (10:11:44 PM): and then leading out when you catch a piece of it in a multiway pot where you don't know what anyone has and you're OOP for the rest of the hand...great Landlord79 (10:11:26 PM): I love cking AQo in the BB, missing the flop and losing only 1 BB on the hand Landlord79 (10:12:09 PM): Renton said something about making the pfr 10x BB from the blinds Landlord79 (10:12:15 PM): is that where this should go? ADeepBalla (10:12:40 PM): you can fight me if you want...but the numbers are telling me that you need to be more aggressive in position...bet your good hands harder if you're OOP...and your marginal hands less OOP Landlord79 (10:12:51 PM): i just like to argue to flesh out ideas Landlord79 (10:13:16 PM): if I just nod my head and say yes, how much do I really learn? ADeepBalla (10:13:40 PM): limped to me in the BB with TT?...I'm raising and clearing the field ADeepBalla (10:13:46 PM): AQo Landlord79 (10:13:27 PM): table dependent ADeepBalla (10:13:50 PM): same thing Landlord79 (10:13:45 PM): AQ is a losing hand ADeepBalla (10:15:19 PM): Ok, listen to me. I don't care what table you're at. Henceforth, you RAISE when you're in position. You raise when you OOP with a solid hand. And you're the nittiest player with crap OOP. You DO NOT get aggressive with crap oop unless you HAMMER the flop. 
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#2
10-04-2007, 01:01 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
first, this is a mess. it's pretty difficult to read.
second, how did you get a HSP player to analyze your play? You have a coach? third, thanks for this, it is really great actually once you get through it!
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#4
10-04-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
I always play my position when it folds around and SB completes. That's all.
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#6
10-04-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
My attempt at a cleanup, thanks for the post LL!
<font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: positional stats since July 1 <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: I'm concerned about my button play <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: Uh...yeah <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: CO and HJ look great <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: I think that I assume people will play back at me for button raising <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: or some kind of mental block <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: one sec <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: you are WICKED nitty <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: cold calling pf could be a problem, this linked w/ the other stuff from the other pics <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: absolutely <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: 18/8 is nitty? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: limped to you on the button with 77...you raise <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: I'd like to see your PF raise # higher <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: pfr has come up in the last month or so <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: my stats on this computer are from 6-handed play...but your net amount won should be increasing toward the button <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: yeah, button play is screwed up, I open 33 for a raise UTG, but don't like raising limpers from the button w/ it <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: or even 77 <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: No no no no no <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: exactly the opposite <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: not on Bodog <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: and quit leading out from the BB when you flop a piece of it <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: how do you see that from this one pic? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: vol put $ in pot is low...10%...went to SD is low 17%...ok... <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: but you lose a lot of money relatively <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: i do it, but how do you know that <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: ergo: you lead out when you catch a piece of it but then have to give up when you get resistance <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: yeah, fire on uncoordinated boards w/ TP or 2nd pair as long as there are more than 3 other players in the pot <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: no no no no no <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: *no more than <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: you are OOP...when you are OOP, you need to be extremely judicious with your bets <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: you can check/call and re-evaluate...if someone improves on the turn and you lose the pot...so what <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: if I bet, I don't get any info <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: if i don't bet <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: * <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: Q7o with Q high flop...you lead out...bad <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: dude, I'm gonna argue w/ that <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: fire, if you meet resistance, you just shut down <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: I"m not playing 5/10 <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: 1618 hands say I'm right <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: diff w/o blinds is + <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: There's tons of times I fold top pair from the blinds <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: sure, but with few opp and a dead board, you should fire <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: raised pot you shouldn't be in <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: unraised pot...YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO HAS WHAT <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: yeah, that's been a +EV adjustment that I have made in the last few months <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: hence the reason for a probe bet <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: if you check, you get absolutely no info <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: a LP player will bet a checked pot w/ air often, then where are you at? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: If you led out from the blinds in a limped pot against me on the button, I'd raise you and you'd be lost. <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: you gonna raise a nit like me? <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: i only bet w/ the goods <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: I'm just saying, your OOP play looks like an easy leak to fix <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: you may be right, I just learn best by arguing <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: what are you looking at to see that? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: It's like AA...you either win a small pot or lose a big one <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: I'm looking at your PF raise #s and your net amount #s. They should be gradually increasing toward the button <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: i think the button is my problem here, not my BB play <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: you expect to lose money in the blinds <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: And how is it that you only raise 4% of the time from the BB? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: JJ-AK = 3% <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: yeah, I don't like to raise out of the blinds unless I can resteal or I have a big hand <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: I like fit or fold from the blinds because you're OOP <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: I'll check up to JJ in a limped pot <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: but you're apparently willing to commit $ with 40% of your hands from the SB...in the WORST position <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: check up to JJ...no no no no <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: AJs+, 88+ <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: committing 1/2 a BB with >5 to 1 odds is quite appealing <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: why raise and play a big pot OOP? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: and then leading out when you catch a piece of it in a multiway pot where you don't know what nd you're OOP for the rest of the hand...great <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: I love cking AQo in the BB, missing the flop and losing only 1 BB on the hand <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: Renton said something about making the pfr 10x BB from the blinds <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: is that where this should go? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: you can fight me if you want...but the numbers are telling me that you need to be more aggressive..bet your good hands harder if you're OOP...and your marginal hands less OOP <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: i just like to argue to flesh out ideas <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: if I just nod my head and say yes, how much do I really learn? <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: limped to me in the BB with TT?...I'm raising and clearing the field <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: AQo <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: table dependent <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: same thing <font color="red"> Landlord79 </font>: AQ is a losing hand <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla </font>: Ok, listen to me. I don't care what table you're at. Henceforth, you RAISE when you're in position. You raise when you OOP with a solid hand. And you're the nittiest player with crap OOP. You DO NOT get aggressive with crap oop unless you HAMMER the flop.
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#7
10-04-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
High Stakes? He should know the win small/lose big with AA is bullcrap then.
I get stacks constantly with AA by playing it right vs bad players and getting them to get it in with jj/qq, as well as vs good players when they have AK,KK as if you are aggressive enough you can def. get paid off well with AA.
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#8
10-04-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
If it's just me and SB, I raise a wide range. It's basically the same as having the button, with the added benefit of getting to see what the SB does before you act.
I can't believe LL's PFR is only 4% from the BB, or maybe the games he plays in just play differently.
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#9
10-04-2007, 01:33 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
[ QUOTE ]
I’d also like to know everyone’s opinion on the blind play that is talked about. What you consider raising hands when limped to in the BB at an avg table, a tight table and a loose table. <font color="blue"> ADeepBalla (10:08:50 PM): And how is it that you only raise 4% of the time from the BB? ADeepBalla (10:09:02 PM): JJ-AK = 3% ADeepBalla (10:10:55 PM): AJs+, 88+ </font> Also, any and all advice about playing the button is welcome as I really have a mental block from this position. <font color="blue">Raise that [censored] up!!!!!! ATC on the "right" table with you having the "right" image! LL, you MUST MUST MUST hammer from the button or you will have trouble earning even CLOSE to your maximum. That being said, practice good table selection and EVEN BETTER SEAT SELECTION. Get two tighties to your left and you should be gold. Check that,,,, you MUST be gold. 72o is the nuts on the button. Play the position, not the cards!!!!!!! </font> Landlord79 (9:49:22 PM): positional stats since July 1 Landlord79 (9:49:36 PM): I'm concerned about my button play Landlord79 (9:50:14 PM): I think that I assume people will play back at me for button raising <font color="blue">Not often enough to matter. But Wait! there's more. At no extra cost to you, villain has now shown you his hand when he comes over the top. </font> ADeepBalla (9:52:25 PM): you are WICKED nitty Landlord79 (9:52:08 PM): cold calling pf could be a problem, this linked w/ the other stuff from the other pics <font color="blue">ADeepBalla (9:52:49 PM): absolutely </font> ADeepBalla (9:53:00 PM): limped to you on the button with 77...you <font color="blue">MUST! </font> raise ADeepBalla (9:53:32 PM): I'd like to see your PF raise # higher Landlord79 (9:55:59 PM): yeah, button play is screwed up, I open 33 for a raise UTG, but don't like raising limpers from the button w/ it ADeepBalla (9:56:35 PM): No no no no no <font color="blue"> "EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE" </font> ADeepBalla (9:57:44 PM): and quit leading out from the BB when you flop a piece of it <font color="blue">LL, I'm not too sure I'm with him here unless he assumes it's a limped family pot. In that scenerio, I c/f all day long. Up against one, maybe two in a limped pot... I'm firing for sure. </font> ...went to SD is low 17%...ok... <font color="blue">You are dead meat if I have position on you. Seriously dead!</font> ADeepBalla (10:02:15 PM): you can check/call and re-evaluate...if someone improves on the turn and you lose the pot...so what ADeepBalla (10:04:52 PM): unraised pot...YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO HAS WHAT ADeepBalla (10:06:06 PM): If you led out from the blinds in a limped pot against me on the button, I'd raise you and you'd be lost. Landlord79 (10:06:09 PM): you gonna raise a nit like me? <font color="blue">Yeah, I'm not sure if his line is valid at "our" $$$ level</font> Landlord79 (10:08:05 PM): i think the button is my problem here, not my BB play <font color="blue">Amen </font> ADeepBalla (10:08:50 PM): And how is it that you only raise 4% of the time from the BB? ADeepBalla (10:09:02 PM): JJ-AK = 3% ADeepBalla (10:10:55 PM): AJs+, 88+ ADeepBalla (10:11:44 PM): and then leading out when you catch a piece of it in a multiway pot where you don't know what anyone has and you're OOP for the rest of the hand...great Landlord79 (10:12:09 PM): Renton said something about making the pfr 10x BB from the blinds <font color="blue"> I agree. Make them all LARGE from the blinds. I prefer not to get to the flop if I'm in the blinds </font> ADeepBalla (10:15:19 PM): Ok, listen to me. I don't care what table you're at. Henceforth, you RAISE when you're in position. You raise when you OOP with a solid hand. And you're the nittiest player with crap OOP. You DO NOT get aggressive with crap oop unless you HAMMER the flop. <font color="blue">Agreed </font> [/ QUOTE ]
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#10
10-04-2007, 01:55 PM
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Re: AIM conversation w/ A Deep Balla about positional stats
Thanks Cazic and King, I'll try to do some explaining shortly.
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