Re: STT Forum Split

[Mat Sklansky]

Re: STT Forum Split

From: Degen

I and many others think it would be a good idea for the One Table Tournament forum to be split into Hi and Low sections. Citanul told me to check with you on this, as he thought it wasn't possible for any forums to be split now, something to do with a forum upgrade.

Is it possible for that forum to be split at this time?

I've started two separate poll's in the forum on this and there is an overwhelming majority of people who think it would be a good idea.


Cheers

[citanul]

Mat,

a few notes:

1) yes, i told him to check with you, as you are the arbiter of these things.

2) "an overwhelming majority" is really, really, really pushing it.

in the poll i locked this morning (for repetitiveness) there were 60 votes for the split, and i think 6 people who actually posted that they wanted a split. maybe 7. and a couple of them were "eh, i don't really care but i think it could be a decent idea."

i think that unless we actually get a big pile of people coming out of the woodwork and showing their faces saying that they want this, it would really be pretty dumb. if a whole bunch of lurkers want a new forum, and aren't going to post, you're going to have a ghosttown of a forum.

meanwhile, it just simply is true that:

1) there are many, many more low stakes players and posters than high stakes

2) this is because they have more questions to ask about these relatively simple games, and high stakes players in general either know how to look over their questions on their own or consult each other rapidly via IM.

Degen meanwhile when repeatedly asked to simply post some of these amazing high stakes posts that he thinks would occur and that are incredibly deep STT questions, has repeatedly said "I would, but it would be pointless, this isn't a high stakes forum" basically. He believes high stakes hands just can't be posted at the moment because no high stakes readers read there any more.

It's just plain false. If none of them read it, who are these valuable future posters of the high stakes forum who are voting yes in his poll? Clearly in a matter of hours this morning he was able to get 60 "interested high stakes posters" to vote for a new forum. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that if someone actually posted hands, they would get responded to.

Continuing, many of the high volume high stakes posters have just stopped posting for a variety of reasons, most prominently that they have changed games to other games, and don't really post in the forum at all:

Bonafone, deuce2high, raptor, jman, freemoney, mcshove, and degen, along with a looooong list of others, have simply moved and started focusing their game play on games they beleive can earn them more money in both the short and long runs. They are of course right, those other games are more profitable if you are good at them.

However those people leaving just sort of leave a void of high volume high stakes posters. They don't appear out of nowehere. Or maybe they do, as the faceless mass of poll voters would suggest.

Further, there really is no difference between high stakes sngs and low stakes sngs. While there is a quality of player difference, there is no structural difference, and the strategies are universally applicable across limits. It's not like someone who plays and beats lower stakes games will be unable or unwilling to comment on high stakes hands, no matter what forum they are posted in. Similarly, the best advice that low stakes posters get on their hands is frequently from the high stakes posters, simply because they are the most experienced posters in general.

These games really are usually a matter of experience, not of stake. But whatever. If there is a decision to split the forum, that's fine too. I just hope more thought goes in to it than very little. I'd both volunteer to moderate such a forum and suggest others who would be capable.

citanul

[MrWookie]

Citanul,

I read Degen's thread. At a glance as a mod, STT looks like a huge forum w/ a lot of traffic that could benefit from a split. But most everyone who actually had a strong opinion on the matter was against it. I don't exactly post there, though, so you don't have to listen to me. I think the best answer, though, is for Degen to post some higher stakes hands. Then, when they get crappy discussion like he predicts, he'll have a good case. If people respond well, then the split is unnecessary.

[MrWookie]

While I'm thinking about, one other forum split that merits mentioning is SSNL. That forum is almost as busy as OOT. Maybe we should consider making a MicroNL?

[Sniper]

Last Mod Forum discussion

Feb thread in STT- Locked , Feb thread 2 - Locked , Feb thread 3

Today's thread in STT - Locked

Post in Forum Suggestions

Over the last couple of months, the STT Forum has been getting around 800 - 1000 posts/day, significantly above the 2+2 forum wide average.

fwiw... I support a split of STT.

[stabn]

But when have you ever not supported a split sniper [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
But when have you ever not supported a split sniper [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in support of anything that helps to better organize the vast amount of knowledge available on the 2+2 forums, in a manner that makes it more accessible to the users and helps to facilitate useful discussion.

[citanul]

there is now a new poll in the forum.

someone has already suggested a 3 way split, with low, mid, and high.

citanul

[Sniper]

Cit, if there was going to be a split... What would your suggestion be on how it should be split?

[citanul]

All,

A couple of threads were started about this, in STTF.

The big one I started was this one:
link

in whatever amount of time it was up, there were 115 people who voiced opinions, 18 "don't cares," 32 "splits" and the rest "nos."

amongst the people who voted to split, there are:

4 people with fewer than 100 posts total, and another 6 with fewer than 300 total posts.

there are a few people who posted that they would like a split forum who i believe might be possibly good/frequent contributors to a hssttf:

jman, iweargoggles, ryanghall, schwza, bigballzpoker, psyduck, degen, z32fanatic, i think could actually be considered "likely" to contribute well, and frequently, to such a forum, amongst people who said yes.

there are of course more people who said no, or don't care, who would contribute well and frequently as well.

there are some dangers though, for instance, jman and degen both play cash games almost exclusively at the moment, and basically don't play stts at all. their level of interest really could be pretty variable.

amongst the "i don't knows" 6 are players who play above the line of "high stakes" that the majority of people decided was the good line, and the rest all play below or didn't disclose where they play.

the yes voters almost all (all but 2) play at least at that line, as well.

the no voters are majority lower stakes players, but 7 of them do play high stakes games.

the voting was clearly not universal, many people who are active-ish members of the forum did not vote.

do i think that the votes of these people justify a need for a new forum? me, no, not really. do i wonder how a poll that degen put up got 60 "yes split the forum" votes in a couple hours and less than half as many people wrote in "yes" votes given several days in my poll? yes.

the reason i asked people to write in is because i think that if we do split the forum it would be imperitive to have enough traffic. i don't think that a line that "there isn't enough high stakes traffic right now, so we should make a forum just for that to generate traffic" is a good one. in the cases of the other hs splits, it was i believe because there was a huge amount of traffic, both hs and ls, and they just needed room to breate, that caused the need for a split. that's way different than thinking "well we'll make a forum and the traffic will appear out of nowhere." basically i think that degen's polls were heavilly weighted by lurkers, who aren't exactly going to be driving the traffic for a new forum.

basically, very few of the people listed below has shown any recent inspiration for thinking that they'd be a huge thread and post contributor in a hs forum. not to say all, since a few of them are quite good posters, but i really do think that the idea that the people in favor of the split should be in some way made to try the silly idea of just posting some hands in the existing forum is a good one.

fwiw, in the past couple of days, i asked a couple of the hs posters to post a hand or two. i posted a couple as well. those posted hands have gotten large numbers of page views relative to the other posts in the forum, they have also been responded to in kind by high stakes posters in the majority, and low stakes "clutter" posters in the minority. sadly, aside from the 5 hands i posted of mine and another players, not many of the people i asked to post posted, perhaps 2 or 3. but the results were impressive and quick, showing that posting leads to quality resonses.

these are the yes voters, with the colums being name, where they play, their vote, where they think hte cutoff should be, their reg date, and their # of posts.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>ohkanada 60 yes 200 9/2/2002 2082
madd 109 yes 100 11/21/2004 118
chrisv 109 yes 109 7/20/2004 1317
mark l 109 yes 215 6/21/2004 4934
ryanghall 114 yes 109 12/1/2004 1939
marand 109- yes 109 11/22/2004 537
velocity 109- yes 200 12/14/2005 529
ladywrestler 109- yes 109 10/29/2005 231
kingdan 109+ yes 109 10/6/2004 1487
iweargoggles 109+ yes 109 3/27/2005 1576
clockwyze 109+ yes 109 3/19/2005 156
berya 109+ yes 100 10/25/2002 290
madscientist 109+ yes 109 1/24/2006 79
bottlegnome 109+ yes 109 4/5/2006 5
psyduck 109+ yes 109 1/21/2005 1995
degen 109+ yes 100 3/15/2005 2950
z32fanatic 109+ yes 215 1/14/2004 756
pancakeboy 109+ yes 109 12/30/2003 189
grimstarr 109+ yes 109 8/9/2005 4505
schwza 114- yes 55 4/2/2003 7248
alwardc4 114- yes 100 12/21/2005 238
boiler bd 114+ yes 109 4/25/2006 24
chaostracize 215+ yes 109 7/30/2004 1893
michael c 215+ yes 215 12/4/2004 315
bigballzpokr 225+ yes 100 10/20/2005 2516
mikeymer 225+ yes 1/19/2005 795
codwarrior 25+ yes 109 9/12/2002 2412
jman28 530+ yes 109 6/14/2004 3026
amazingervin 55+ yes 109 1/5/2006 516
jeffraider 55+ yes 55 6/29/2004 1743
choicesthops yes 109 12/2/2004 1633
bracun yes 4/4/2006 43
</pre><hr />

make of that what you will. i'll be around.

citanul