I turn a set and check-call

Grease · #1 10-31-2007, 12:14 PM

The villian in this hand is a tight-passive regular. He is older, and probably thinks I'm on the verge of being a LAG (which is entirely relative). I've been showing down winners (albeit weak ones) and my image is probably pretty solid. I've never seen him cap the flop before, and when he bets/raises big bet streets, he has close to the nuts. I've never seen him cap any street before ever.

I raise in EP with TT, on call behind me, he calls on the button, BB calls.

Flop is 234tt.

BB checks, I bet, he raises, BB folds, I trey, he 4-bets, I call.

Turn: T

I C/C

River: 9

I C/C

C/R the turn and call a trey? Fold the river UI?

I can't think of a good way to play this hand OOP, maybe you guys can help me out here.

mntndrew · #2 10-31-2007, 12:43 PM

Isn't there a good chance he flopped a set and correctly puts you on an overpair? There's no way you can fold the river UI. Although you're behind A5 (and a much less likely 65 since he's tight), on the turn, you're ahead of the small sets as well as a tight passive AA/KK line (maybe not your game, but I see this with some frequency).

The turn card can't scare him that much, so I like a turn c/r followed by calling a 3-bet and c/c'ing the river, or b/c'ing the river if your turn c/r is just called.

chillrob · #3 10-31-2007, 01:14 PM

I can't imagine ever folding top set here. If his 4 bet on the flop proves absolutely that he has the nuts, then you should fold there, not draw to a runner runner boat.

Actually even if you think his four bet means either a set or a straight you should fold there rather than draw to a two-outer.

Is it possible he could have OESD and nut flush draw and play it that way on the flop though? I imagine he would be a favorite over you at that point.

Scarmiglio · #4 10-31-2007, 01:15 PM

If he's as passive as you say and you've never seen him cap the flop before, then you can fold to his flop cap. I wouldn't love it, but against this type of player you'll save money in the long run.

TheCount212 · #5 10-31-2007, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there a good chance he flopped a set and correctly puts you on an overpair? There's no way you can fold the river UI. Although you're behind A5 (and a much less likely 65 since he's tight), on the turn, you're ahead of the small sets as well as a tight passive AA/KK line (maybe not your game, but I see this with some frequency).

The turn card can't scare him that much, so I like a turn c/r followed by calling a 3-bet and c/c'ing the river, or b/c'ing the river if your turn c/r is just called.

[/ QUOTE ]
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No offense to you personally.. but this is yet another example of "aggrobot" thinking... ignoring reads and information and forging ahead because "we have a set." This is level one thinking.

If the old villain is passive (and there is no reason to doubt the OP's highly detailed description) there is NO WAY he'd 4-bang a small set on the flop with a straightened board. Passives don't floor it when there's even the slightest chance of being behind. A passive would maybe raise and call a r/r at most.. but more likely a passive would even just call your flop bet and see what the turn brings.

Fear of folding is the number one attribute of, guess what? A fish/donkey. There are better spots to turn a set of tens than this. The most aggressive you can afford to be here, under these circumstances, is to c/c this to the river and lose less than you might have.

In other words, OP played the hand very well. The only slight mistake was arguably 3-banging the flop.. but then he probably wouldn't have gained the info from the 4bet and wouldn't have slowed down on the more expensive streets.

KitCloudkicker · #6 10-31-2007, 01:31 PM

how does a tight passive ever have A5 or 56 here after you raise PF? i would automuck it pf, does that make me "king nit?"

unless he really is a loose passive, not a tight passive

gobbledygeek · #7 10-31-2007, 01:38 PM

* grunch *

I routinely play against these tight-passive older regulars at my live 2/4 table.

Preflop I play the same way.

Flop I also play the same way. His raise could be 55 or perhaps a smaller pair than TT. However, it might be AA..JJ. Once he 4bets though I think we can pretty much narrow it down to a flopped set (most likely) or an outside chance of a flopped straight (not as likely, because do tight old guys play A5s or 56s to a raise with no one else in the pot?).

I think turn I check/raise because there's no way an old tight guy is 4betting a draw, so he's going to bet if checked to. As well, I just think there's much more chance he's flopped a set here rather than a straight. I call down if 3bet cuz I'm not good enough to fold top set; otherwise I'm leading any river.

GcluelessnoobG

TheCount212 · #8 10-31-2007, 01:41 PM

The passives I play with would call a single raise in the BB with 65s every time. Wouldn't any good player? Just because a player is passive doesn't make him an idiot.

KitCloudkicker · #9 10-31-2007, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The passives I play with would call a single raise in the BB with 65s every time. Wouldn't any good player? Just because a player is passive doesn't make him an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

he called 2 cold on the BUTTON

recheck OP's post

and yes calling two cold there with 56s or A5s after a raise by a sane EP player and 1 caller is idiotic and something no winning player on this forum should ever do.

gobbledygeek · #10 10-31-2007, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If the old villain is passive (and there is no reason to doubt the OP's highly detailed description) there is NO WAY he'd 4-bang a small set on the flop with a straightened board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tight passive old guys aren't completely stupid; they know they are ahead against a preflop raiser on this board almost every time when they've flopped a set. If they had of flopped a set on a TJQ board (say TT) then they'd be more likely to play it passively.