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#51
08-30-2007, 05:01 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] if cts says shove i think you should apologize to everyone for having to read this [censored] [/ QUOTE ] First of all, I didn't say shoving is bad. I personally believe min-raise and fold to shove is very nice. Secondly, I don't owe anyone an apology no matter what cts says. I'm expressing my opinion, I expect a lot of good players to differ. As long as it's in a respectful tone I have no problem with that. I can understand playful too. But people here are extremely disrespectful and give no effort to explain their thought process. When I point that out and kindly ask to at least try and a mod quotes my post and gives a 'LOL' and then tells me I'm clueless with no effort at all you can see somethings wrong here. It's a disgrace. [/ QUOTE ] It seems like every day people come in here, post ridiculous hands with absurd arguments and then get mad when anyone point out that their argument is ridiculous. I think my track record with respect to making good posts in good threads speaks for itself, I don't need to prove myself to you or Jamie. 
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#52
08-30-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i dont think leatherass has those small flushes in his range nearly as often as the high ones. and i think hes very capable of folding them. and the sets given the texture and how the hand played out are easy laydowns. and your argument for bluffing is true, but think about it this way: what are we bluffing with here? did we really float a 4 way 3/4 pot bet on the flop with total air and 2 players left to act behind us? it would be interesting if we are, but i seriously doubt jamie is ever doing this, and at least leatherass never thinks he is. [/ QUOTE ] i would bluff AJ here in a second, apparently leatherass isn't calling anything except the absolute nuts. [/ QUOTE ] If you have AJ no clubs then he can have QsJs, KsJs. The thing with this hand is that his calling range is reduced, because a K hi, Q hi and J hi flush are excluded from his range.
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#53
08-30-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i dont think leatherass has those small flushes in his range nearly as often as the high ones. and i think hes very capable of folding them. and the sets given the texture and how the hand played out are easy laydowns. and your argument for bluffing is true, but think about it this way: what are we bluffing with here? did we really float a 4 way 3/4 pot bet on the flop with total air and 2 players left to act behind us? it would be interesting if we are, but i seriously doubt jamie is ever doing this, and at least leatherass never thinks he is. [/ QUOTE ] i would bluff AJ here in a second, apparently leatherass isn't calling anything except the absolute nuts. [/ QUOTE ] ya so basically youre bluffing AJ AQ AK? is AJ even in your range nearly as often as the other hands you have? like are you really calling preflop with AJ every time and calling the flop every time (the flop may very well be a fold with AJ) is AK really in your calling range or are you reraising way more? prob reraising, so really your hand range for bluffing would be something like AJ sometimes and AQ most of the time. everything else is a value bet, and given the texture of the board, Q, J, T and 9 high flushes are not possible in his range but ARE possible in yours, so its only really low flushes that he could have and expect to call with, and he could very well fold those. i think hands like these are not in an expected hand range enough to make leatherass think youre bluffing with a high enough frequency. if this was a heads up pot it would be totally different. 4 way with 2 players left to act behind changes the dynamics a lot
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#54
08-30-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
[ QUOTE ]
i would bluff AJ here in a second, apparently leatherass isn't calling anything except the absolute nuts. [/ QUOTE ] Edit: AJ is barely in Jamie's range so I guess just AK and AQ right?
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#55
08-30-2007, 05:03 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
[ QUOTE ]
this thread astonishes me, and the posters here need to think a little outside their own worlds and have an open mind about every situation they encounter. my guess would be that is why most of you are stuck in mid stakes, because you are stuck in paradigms preventing you from improving past a certain level. i think its really close between raise and call given the texture of the board, but i suspect call is the correct play given your opponent. i dont think when you raise youre getting called by a worse hand >50% of the time by leatherass given the action. this is only raisable if you are almost certain hes not folding 78ss, which i think is a fairly easy fold to this raise. it gets a little interesting if you think from his perspective on how youre playing things like Axss on the flop and if he thinks youre semibluffing hands like this every time then maybe hes more likely to call with the smaller flushes. but still, i think he folds them enough and folds sets enough to make this a flat call. [/ QUOTE ] So one good player agrees with OP and u both make good points especially that jamie would have a different image than cts would, which could the optimal play different. It seems like maybe in a vacuum, in your perfect world the calling ranges and the heros pushing ranges to leatherass, that a flat call would make sense. However as j fish mentioned above if you call here it hurts you game on future hands when you try and bluff. And also who says leather ass is perfect, u both assume he plays perfectly and never makes hero calls, which in reality in inaccurate, he could be multitabling and not knwo how tight the villian is or possibly just not playing his A game. This is exactly why leatherass can get away with murder against most regs. You are HU with the second nuts, your not gunna cinvince me that leatherass plays so perfectly that hes not calling with worse.
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#56
08-30-2007, 05:05 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
Since leatherass is a supergenius, shouldn't he realize that OP thinks this would be a great bluff spot with air (like he said in his first post) and thus call with a wider range? But then He may know that and fold because he's on an even higher level. But then he may be even higher than that and you can trick him into calling by being even higher! Or by being the correct number of steps lower, which may be considered higher in some crazy ways.
Geez, it's hard to play against a guy who always makes perfect decisions!!!! This is like battling cts except instead of 5bet-bluffs he's a giant nit. Otherwise exactly the same. Am I on the right path here, Daut?
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#57
08-30-2007, 05:06 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
like i said action, i am open to either option, both are "ok" i just think its wrong to automatically jump to the conclusion that shove is 100% the best play.
you may be right. just want everyone to keep more of an open mind about every situation they encounter
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#58
08-30-2007, 05:06 PM
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Re: KJs river flush vs Leatherass
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] if cts says shove i think you should apologize to everyone for having to read this [censored] [/ QUOTE ] First of all, I didn't say shoving is bad. I personally believe min-raise and fold to shove is very nice. Secondly, I don't owe anyone an apology no matter what cts says. I'm expressing my opinion, I expect a lot of good players to differ. As long as it's in a respectful tone I have no problem with that. I can understand playful too. But people here are extremely disrespectful and give no effort to explain their thought process. When I point that out and kindly ask to at least try and a mod quotes my post and gives a 'LOL' and then tells me I'm clueless with no effort at all you can see somethings wrong here. It's a disgrace. [/ QUOTE ] It seems like every day people come in here, post ridiculous hands with absurd arguments and then get mad when anyone point out that their argument is ridiculous. I think my track record with respect to making good posts in good threads speaks for itself, I don't need to prove myself to you or Jamie. [/ QUOTE ] That's right. You don't have to prove anything to me. You could be Brian Townsend for all I care. But the way you childishly patronised my post after my kind request for a more deep, civilized discussions shows you're not fit to be a mod imo.
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