NL: how deep??

[alanbrown]

I'm not sure I agree here. I don't think he's sayin that he doesn't play TPTK if he has >30BB, just that it's going to be possible to raise him off it on the flop if he has that much stack. I can be massaged for more than 30BB with TPTK if the turn and river are the right cards to screw me (low cards that don't make obvious straights or flushes or pair the board). Betting patterns on the hand would then dictate whether I thought I was ahead or behind.

But with 30BB or less there's no way you're not getting my stack if I hit TPTK and you get the set.

[smbruin22]

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But with 30BB or less there's no way you're not getting my stack if I hit TPTK and you get the set.

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i understood that you could easily play TPTK (even all-in) for alot more than 30BB....

but if i take your quote, i'd put in something more than 30BB. i'd say 45BB (starting stack), my money is going in on TPTK, maybe even higher... at 70-75BB, it is NOT going in (generally)

[AKQJ10]

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I can be massaged for more than 30BB with TPTK if the turn and river are the right cards to screw me (low cards that don't make obvious straights or flushes or pair the board).

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That was my point -- that over three postflop betting rounds, you're generally going to need to be willing get in 30 BBL in with TPTK. At least, you need to do it sometimes, or you will be so weak-tight that any maniac can beat you ten times for every time he accidentally pays off your two pair or better.

Obviously if the flop betting goes something like (bet)-raise with TPTK-(reraise) then it's fairly easy to get away from against predictable opponents. But if the betting is something like, with your opponent's action in parens in each case:

Preflop: raise to 4 BBL - (call) -> 8 BBL pot.

Semi-coordinated flop: (bet 6 BBL) - raise to 16 BBL - (call) -> 40 BBL pot.

Now you've invested 24 BBL on TPTK. You're telling me that you're not going to call another 6 BBL on the turn and river because you know you're beat?

If you always play that weak-tight, like I said before, your observant opponents are going to decide that a lot of hands look like two pair and sets.

Don't get me wrong -- if you get your flop raises called by strong players, you should think twice about whether you're good, and sometimes even check-fold. But not always.

I notice we didn't class overpairs with TPTK. To the person who said 30 BBL -- what's your general ceiling for AA on a Qxx board? What about a QJx board?

[smbruin22]

strikes me as something that can really be manipulated.... seems like rule #1 amongst good players is don't lose your stack (assuming minimum size) with TPTK.... i don't think players bluff enough quite frankly.

i looked at a vorhaus book recently and he made a good point (not too original but it stuck with me for some reason). most players seldom bluff, they much prefer to slow-play big hands. somewhat related is that most players will basically tell you what they have by their betting. it's only at higher limits that players get really tricky.... i realize that mixes alot of ideas, but it seems like people don't bluff enough and players with TPTK seem to respect that.

[AKQJ10]

I agree with that generally. But even at NL25, there are some players who know how to bluff at a semi-optimal-to-slightly-often frequency. Against such players, I occasionally need to take a stand with a good-but-not-monster hand.

Somewhat branching topics, I've long understood that a semibluff/bet fair hands strategy is much preferable to a check-call bad hands/slowplay monsters strategy. I think that's probably self-evident at the extremes, but I still wonder if I can really semibluff enough that AK would want to give me action on a JTT board when I have JT.

I'm not saying that you should routinely be staking 100 BBL stacks on TPTK, except in a live $1-2 game where you'll routinely have the best of it in these confrontations. I'm saying that 30BBL is probably too low an effective cap.

Against a certain class of bad player, who won't give action with TPWK and won't semibluff but will always let you know when you're beat, 30BBL might be about right. There are a lot of those at NL25, but not everyone is like that.

[smbruin22]

AKQJ10, good comments... and i do realize at the end of the day that the opposing players styles are so vital. no sense bluffing a calling machine or action junkie.

i played a slow tournament recently and had little luck on the flop... but i'd see the "pulling teeth" nature of my opponent's call of my continuation bet, so my whole stack goes in on the turn. worked 3 times. quite risky and very dependent on my read of their weakness.... one thing that i don't think is mentioned enough is that alot of players will stay in with second/middle pair or TPWK until you basically jam them. i think we all assume too often that our opposition is on the flush and/or straight draw which is somewhat unlikely heads-up.

EDIT: i read some blogs of guys who've worked their way up from low stakes to pretty high stakes (one B&M and the other online), and they say it gets very, very tricky at the higher levels. of course, i wouldn't know.

[alanbrown]

You're right. I was using Full Tilt SNG as my sanity check. I figure that with AK on a A82r flop I couldn't be raised off my hand with my full stack of 1500. But I did my math wrong. if the blinds are 15/30, then 1500 is 50BB not 30BB.

That said I'd like to reiterate everyone's comments that these numbers are very flexible depending on other factors.