can u guys help me w these shorty spots?

[hamnegger]

i hate these spots itm 50ish left average stack has only 11-12bb in hand one my hand is fairly strong but my position is horrible and im a blind for over 10% of my stack in 2 hands and in hand number 2 my position is better my cards are live but my hand stinks but i need chips bad and my raise is just big enough to mean something.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG (t113655)
Hero (t37107)
MP1 (t83085)
MP2 (t56877)
MP3 (t97098)
CO (t36681)
Button (t49406)
SB (t27469)
BB (t83060)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t6000 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 (t103255)
Hero (t26707)
CO (t37591)
Button (t57877)
SB (t108898)
BB (t35281)
UTG (t59706)
UTG+1 (t35469)
MP1 (t74660)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero

[markbris]

I dont like pushing either of these spots. In the first I think you are just in too early of a position to push K10 profitably, just go through the blinds, maybe you get a good hand then or you can push much wider once u get in LP. Second hand I think theres too many behind you with such a weak hand to push, if you were button its an autoshove but I think its bad in MP3.

[SonofDjugashvili]

I shove both, but then I might be too aggressive when short. There is no point raising to 12K in Hand 1 - you have to call the RR anyhow. So, just shove if you are going to play.
I like shoving 87 in 2nd case, since I'm going to have 2 live cards if called.

[deankeaton7]

Hand 1 depends on just how often the table calls with weak aces, and also how often it is folded around to you in mid position. I think most times its a push, although i could fold as well if I knew that next orbit I had a decent shot to shove near cutoff. the 87 hand is a shove.

[betgo]

Hand 1 is a fold. Too may BBs in too early position.

Hand 2 is a push. You are too short stacked to fold. Your hand isn't great, but it plays OK against Ax, Kx, and small pps. If you steal, look to push again before the blinds hit.

[hamnegger]

thx guys in hand 1 i folded . too many players to act w a hand thats dominated if called.

hand 2 i shoved and ran into kk in the bb. oh well but i think i made right play in both cases after hearing from a few of you.

[4CardStraight]

I open push an aweful lot.

Its like a default play for me, even up to larger stack sizes than 11-12 bb. We can debate the merits of that, but regardless, my point is that I am extremely aggressive when it comes to open pushing from a short stack.

These are both folds.

Hand 1: More than 50% of the time someone behind you has 99+ATo+ (top 10%, 7 polayers (.9^7 = .47)) and you are 30/70

Thats negative EV unless the players are really really tight. Given your stack size and that most everyone covers you, and also they SEE that you will be paying bb in two hands all will cause them to call as loose as ATo. Weak hand from this spot, its a muck. Its totally an open push from later position tho, no doubt.

Hand 2: Also a muck in my book, but this is pretty close. A push isnt aweful. If players are tight behind, if were close to a bubble in payout, its not bad for sure. Personally I muck and hope for a better hand in this or the next orbit. It isnt fair to say "My cards are live" when theres 4 people yet to act, and 77+ pairs dominate you, and with 4 people yet to act thats something like 20% of the time you are obliteratingly crushed, as opposed to just way behind. Your stack size is pretty small, I could see either of the blinds calling you with something as weak as QTo. Sure against QTo 87o isnt that bad given the overlay, but against a relatively wide range of hands, 87o doesnt fare well. Lets say they call you with top 15% hands (all 4 as an average) and to ease the math, assume only one can call. With that tight, 50% of the time you win 9k, 50% you are 30/70 against the range netting you -7700. SO with them calling that tight, it nets to being +EV, but just very very barely. If we are in the cash tho, folding may have +$EV greater than the push. If they call 25% it then goes Negative chip EV, although it may be hard to see J8s calling you for instance, or K6s, but they might.

at a 25% calling range:
70% of the time you are called and are 33/66
30% of the time you win 9k

So that nets out to negative chip EV, but the opponents need to be fairly Clairvoient for that to be true.


Long story short, if your opponents are lets say 40-50% too tight with their calling ranges, either one of these could be a thinly +EV push. From early position, it is much more unlikely that the average of our opponents is too tight from optimal (given that there are more of them and one loosey goosey skews further than one thats too tight, and also given that *optimal* calling ranges are tighter given earlier position pushes, thus its much more difficult for them to be wildly too tight from optimal) In the second hand, its not that bad of a push really. If they are pretty accurate in their calling ranges its negative EV, but in most cases they will be too tight. Its just really quite thin. Yeah your getting desperate, its not too bad of a push, but personally I muck and take a face card or two suited cards instead. 87o is not very powerful at all, its really quite ugly. K5o fares quite a bit better against top 25%, so does 54s, heck even J5s fares better against top 25%.

4card

[jonnyd]

hand 1 is an easy fold

hand 2 is weird. i think the sb will look us up pretty light, so pushing a nondominated hand isnt all that bad, but with the number of people left to act, i think you run into pairs too much for 87o to be a good hand to push from CO

[All_In_Olly]

Hand 1 is a fold imo.
Your M is desperate but not desperate enough yet to do this UTG+1.

Hand 2 your M is what, 2.5/3?
I am very happy to shove this .

[levAA]

hi ham

just did the math with powertools

hand 1 is borderline, only +EV if all opponents play very tight

hand 2 is a clear push against any type of opponents, the tighter the better.