10-20 Kill hand from Wynn

[walsh313]

10-20 O8 at the Wynn. Loose typical good game. I am the kill in late position. 4 limpers to me in kill with Ad Ks Js 10s and I check, button folds and both blinds complete. Flop Qh Jh 4d. BB bets out, one caller, then a raise by midposition, two folds and I muck while showing the button my hand. I said something to the effect of being the only person at the table who would fold. After the hand was over a discussion started on my fold and the entire table was pretty much in agreeance that my fold was bad and that I am an overly tight player. I think the fold is standard and will elaborate after some time. Anybody else fold? Anyone call?

[Burdzthewurd]

Fold seems fine to me, Ace or 9 of hearts are no good for you, board pairing kills it too, and even if you hit one of the black aces, there's a low draw waiting to suck out half the pot from you anyway.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold seems fine to me, Ace or 9 of hearts are no good for you, board pairing kills it too, and even if you hit one of the black aces, there's a low draw waiting to suck out half the pot from you anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you missed a few outs (kings and tens)

[wackjob]

I played at this very game a few weeks back. I don't think this is an easy fold, but if you can put your opponents on some ranges, you can make this a fold or a call. I'd lean towards folding here w/o any more information. Some number crunchers can give you the stats on your wrap draw versus a set versus a flush draw, etc.

[WMB]

We have 9 clean outs, but if we hit on the turn we have to dodge over half the deck to hold up. theres nothing wrong with mucking here and waiting for a better spot. I am wondering though about another possibility. How about 3-betting here if your'e almost certain you can fold out the other 2 and get it heads up, given the equity in pot? We need Buzz or someone to crunch the numbers here.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
We have 9 clean outs, but if we hit on the turn we have to dodge over half the deck to hold up. theres nothing wrong with mucking here and waiting for a better spot. I am wondering though about another possibility. How about 3-betting here if your'e almost certain you can fold out the other 2 and get it heads up, given the equity in pot? We need Buzz or someone to crunch the numbers here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just typed out a whole response before re-reading the OP and seeing that a player raised the flop, making our immediate odds 5-1 and our implied odds likely 6-1 or 7-1. Obviously if there isn't a raise it's a must call. But even with the raise it's closer than it looks. If you're up against two very specific hands, which is near worst case scenario, top set in one hand, and the nut flush draw in the other, you've got 20% equity. But if you're up against top pair + gutshot + flush draw in one hand, and the nut flush draw in the other, you've got 30% equity. And there will be instances where you've got 40% equity, but on average i'd say you're usually holding 28% equity in this spot.

So, that turns this into a player specific decision. If the player who raised was an excellent player, I would fold because there is a hand that totally crushes you, the same wrap + flush draw. TBH, I'm usually calling here, because most people wont have that hand when they raise here, and you can usually expect someone behind you to call two cold, and even if they dont, I think you're getting 5-1 to peel one. This is a high variance situation, and there are much more profitable calls to be made, but assuming you can play the turn and river correctly I reccomend calling, because even making very slightly +EV calls still translates into profit over the long run. I do reitterate though, it's very close and usually player specific.

But FTR, you wouldn't have found yourself in this spot if you had played the hand correctly preflop!

Raise!

You've got four broadway cards and king high spades in what appears to be a 7-way pot. Raise this hand!


-Tex

[WMB]

Thank you Tex,

But what do you think about investing another half bet here to possibly fold out non nut hearts? (OR small set)

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you Tex,

But what do you think about investing another half bet here to possibly fold out non nut hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]

It all depends on the players, but I doubt a three bet gets it headsup often enough to justify it, but if you were reasonably sure that it would, then it would be correct, because you'll often find yourself at worst having 30% equity and often times near coin-flip. But again, I rarely see people bet/fold a flop in LO8.

[peterchi]

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If the player who raised was an excellent player, I would fold because there is a hand that totally crushes you, the same wrap + flush draw. TBH, I'm usually calling here, because most people wont have that hand when they raise here...

[/ QUOTE ]
What are people raising with here?

[niss]

Are you considering the probability/possibility of getting jammed on the flop, and that the earlier caller may be asked to call an additional two bets when it gets to him, with the possibility of a raise thereafter?