cards speak or players?

ACPlayer · #1 07-14-2007, 11:00 AM

Lat night at the Borg.

Player 1 and Player 2 are in a grudge match trying to outplay the other.

Bunch of fish fold, Player 1 raises, Player 2 3 bets and all fold. Flop, turn, river plenty of action. The river board looks like K J J T 9 something like that. Player 2 shows first 8-5 suited. Player 1 looks and looks, no one says anything. Player 1 starts to throw away the hand face down towards the dealer releases the hand but dealer is slow, no one says anything. Player 2 now says something like -- throw it away I got a straight. Someone now says -- "that's not a straight". Player 1 pulls back the hand and shows pocket 7s.

Appropriate/Inappropriate for a player to say that?
Appropriate/Inappropriate for the dealer to say that?

Incidentally, Player 1 could have been deliberately slow rolling and Player 2 could have been angle shooting or actually thought he had the straight. This was a grudge match and the players were not tooooo bad, definitely not newbies.

steamraise · #2 07-14-2007, 11:41 AM

Player 1 released his hand. Dealer should muck it.

Player 2 should not be miscalling his hand.
Dealer or random player is fine saying "that's not a straight".
But player 1's cards should be in the muck...

mce86 · #3 07-14-2007, 12:26 PM

What did the dealer say? Player 2 wants him to muck his hand so he can take it down. The idiot who calls out the hand needs to shut up. You're not allowed to talk about the hand, and that is a classic reason why. If player 1 wants to muck, muck.

AngusThermopyle · #4 07-14-2007, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The idiot who calls out the hand needs to shut up. You're not allowed to talk about the hand, and that is a classic reason why. If player 1 wants to muck, muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the idiot.
One player lied about his hand at the showdown and the dealer did not correct him. Anybody at the table had the right, if not the obligation, to state that the player did not have a straight.

bernie · #5 07-14-2007, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idiot who calls out the hand needs to shut up. You're not allowed to talk about the hand, and that is a classic reason why. If player 1 wants to muck, muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the idiot.
One player lied about his hand at the showdown and the dealer did not correct him. Anybody at the table had the right, if not the obligation, to state that the player did not have a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

WhiteKnight · #6 07-14-2007, 03:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idiot who calls out the hand needs to shut up. You're not allowed to talk about the hand, and that is a classic reason why. If player 1 wants to muck, muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are the idiot.
One player lied about his hand at the showdown and the dealer did not correct him. Anybody at the table had the right, if not the obligation, to state that the player did not have a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

pocketpared · #7 07-14-2007, 03:05 PM

What was the game and what did the players look like?

PantsOnFire · #8 07-14-2007, 04:34 PM

First off, there is no "magic muck". There is no rule that states if a hand is slid towards the muck or on the muck, is now irrevocably dead. Such a hand, if it can be positively identified (i.e. it has not been mixed in), then it can be brought back into play.

The situation you described is the exact reason that this rule is in force.

And yes, it is very appropriate for a player to point out a miscalled hand. We are talking about the integrity of the game here and everyone at the table is part of that.

Further, I know of casinos who have a rule that if you miscall your hand (claiming a better hand than you have), it is dead, end of story. So in your scenario, Player 1 would be awarded the pot whether he actually had the best hand or not and even if his hand was mixed into the muck and gone forever.

RR · #9 07-14-2007, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Further, I know of casinos who have a rule that if you miscall your hand (claiming a better hand than you have), it is dead, end of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally the other player has to react to this by mucking his hand so it is not retrievable. If his cards are retrievable they should be so the best hand can be awarded the pot. The floor generally needs to make a determination that the overcall was intentional.

Eponymous · #10 07-14-2007, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're not allowed to talk about the hand, and that is a classic reason why. If player 1 wants to muck, muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making sure the hands are read correctly by helping analyze the board and tabled hands helps keep the game moving and is appreciated by every (reasonable) player. Not being allowed to talk about hands doesn't apply after showdown. If a player starts to muck because someone incorrectly identified his own hand being better than it is, he was just being sportsmanlike by believing the other player. He shouldn't be punished for it if his cards can be recovered.