Completing in the SB in an unraised pot

[AragornX151]

I've been thinking about this topic from a poker theory/reality perspective of late, and I'm curious to hear the thoughts of everyone here.

Poker theory dictates that you can profitably complete from the sb with any two cards in a 2/3 blind structure, and you can profitably complete with a majority of holdings in a 1/2 structure, assuming there are a few limpers+. This is obviously true in a mathematical sense; your pot odds are excellent, and are even better because of the implied odds against inferior competition.

I think this is clearly always +++ev for excellent players, especially laggy ones. For instance, players like HOWMANY and Death Donkey probably make a ton of money completing with mediocre hands and outplaying opponents postflop. I've made plenty of money this way as well. So before I continue, I want to stress that I am NOT saying that playing most hands from the SB in an unraised pot is normally an error. I think it's entirely player dependent, and quite often correct.

However, I wonder if many players would benefit from not getting involved in these spots. I think completing with crap can have a lot of unexpected, negative consequences for even above-average players. You wind up involved in a lot of pots where the proper decisions are difficult, and you're out of position. Say there are two limpers, you complete for half a bet with 95o, and the big blind checks. The flop comes T54. What's the proper play? Obviously, this is game and player dependent. The answer isn't important. But if your game is off, if you aren't as sharp as usual, or if your post-flop play isn't up to snuff, you may wind up getting involved when you shouldn't, or folding when ahead. And it may wind up having negative effects on the remainder of your session.

If you're prone to tilting, I think it's probably more +ev to fold marginal holdings in the sb in the 1/2 structure, and to fold your worst hands in the 2/3 structure. This is also an excellent way to decrease variance, a particularly useful tool if you tend to play worse after losing some big pots, or are in the midst of a losing streak which is affecting your confidence, or if you're taking a shot at a higher game than usual. I do this sometimes to cool off if I'm running badly and while I probably lose a slight bit of "pure EV" during these times, I think it's done wonders for my overall results, especially from a psychological perspective. When you're down, it's always tempting to play more hands to win back "your money" from the numerous fish at the table. It's human nature. And it normally happens [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. But I think that most mid-limit players could benefit from avoiding these ultra close-decisions at times when things aren't going their way.

I know the forums here are mostly obsessed with maximizing EV to the limit, and I totally understand and agree with that as a long-term goal. However, since poker is about so much more than just the most effective mathematical play, I think this can be a good way to minimize risk when other factors aren't aligned like you'd like. And let's face it, we all have those times. When you suffer bad beats against weak players, it can subtly make you play worse. And when I read some stories in the low-content thread about really rough runs...

Thoughts? And just to clarify, I play most hands in the SB, and don't think people here "call too much" or anything. I just think there can be merit to folding more than what's "correct."

G

[emerson]

I think you need to make a decesion with garbage hands of exactly how you plan to handle the flop. 72 offsuit, I need to make at least two pair or an open end straight or I'm gone. The biggest danger is getting married to a hand. Those with this tendency would probably do best to fold the weakies.

The other factor is the big blind. This has started me folding in lots of these situations. Lots of players in the BB, when they see all those limpers, they just can't resist raising with any half decent hand to create a huge pot. Then you are sorry you called. It often starts a raising frenzy and ends up two or three bets back to you.

[AragornX151]

[ QUOTE ]
The other factor is the big blind. This has started me folding in lots of these situations. Lots of players in the BB, when they see all those limpers, they just can't resist raising with any half decent hand to create a huge pot. Then you are sorry you called.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew I forgot something, absolutely true.

[The DaveR]

Translation: If you suck, play fewer hands.

[AragornX151]

Also, I think it just doesn't work to go into a hand saying "if I hit 2 pair or better, I'm in. Otherwise, I fold." It's just not that simple...and that's why I think just not getting involved can be the better move at times.

[HOWMANY]

Yeah I play way tighter in the sb if I am losing on that particular day and even tighter still if I have been losing a lot lately in general. First of all people see me losing and realize I'm not invincible. Second of all I'm probably not playing as well as I think I am so the last thing I need to do is get involved with T6o OOP over and over.

[cowboy billy]

I really don't get the purpose of this thread and I think daver summed it up pretty nicely

I'd be glad to start a discussion about which hands can and which hands can't be played though, bc I'm not always sure

never actively thought about it, but I think I play any two connected (45 and up), any reasonable suited cards, any 2 gapper (57 and up) any 3 gapper (7J and up) and any ace, with ~3+ limpers

that's a guesstimate though and it varies, it goes up and down a bit depending on the number of limpers and also the flow of the game, I'd have to think about it some more to be sure

I play considerably less hands from the bb when faced with a single raise for the same number of ppl involved in the pot though, bc our implied odds are not nearly as good

[Hass]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't get the purpose of this thread and I think daver summed it up pretty nicely

I'd be glad to start a discussion about which hands can and which hands can't be played though, bc I'm not always sure

never actively thought about it, but I think I play any two connected (45 and up), any reasonable suited cards, any 2 gapper (57 and up) any 3 gapper (7J and up) and any ace, with ~3+ limpers

that's a guesstimate though and it varies, it goes up and down a bit depending on the number of limpers and also the flow of the game, I'd have to think about it some more to be sure

I play considerably less hands from the bb when faced with a single raise for the same number of ppl involved in the pot though, bc our implied odds are not nearly as good

[/ QUOTE ]

me:

any 2 sooted
any 2 connected (except 32 I guess)
any one gappers (46 or higher)
any ace
any 2 8 or higher.
Too lose/tight?

Of course I tighten up a lot if the bb likes to raise. I hate calling w/ like J8o and having the bb raise.

How many of you complete and then fold when the bb raises, or how often do you find this happening? I guess it is the same as calling a raise from the bb or after limping, except your hand usually sucks.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]

How many of you complete and then fold when the bb raises, or how often do you find this happening? I guess it is the same as calling a raise from the bb or after limping, except your hand usually sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once in a while in 2/3 and very rarely in 1/2. In 1/2 I do it only after I have limped a hand that I already know I shouldn't have limped and I just avoid the compounding error monster that is already looming overhead. Or when the BB is really tight and I know his raise means an extremely strong hand.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you complete and then fold when the bb raises, or how often do you find this happening? I guess it is the same as calling a raise from the bb or after limping, except your hand usually sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

I fold all trouble hands and utter off suit trash and play hands with good implied odds if the BB raises and there are many limpers. To borrow a No Limit concept,you have the best relative position and can build big pots with big draws by Check Raising the field.