[50NL] Raise "to define my hand" or just call down?

[ciro bonano]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed)

SB ($86.40)
Hero ($52.00)
UTG ($44.80)
Button ($47.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $1.75</font>, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($3.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($7.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4.

River: ($15.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

Obviously reads help a lot here but I had none.

I'm a bit torn between the two concepts:
- Define your hand with a raise, so you won't keep calling off your stack with a medium hand (as Harrington suggests in his books)
- Raising only folds out worse hands, so why not just call down on this dry board and let him hang himself if he has a worse hand?

I find the second reasoning much more appealing, but I'm still not really happy about the way I played this hand.

[Eddi]

Aren't you just letting QQ+ or a set stack you this way every single time? I'm a little confused why you think it's ok to call all the way w/o any idea of his holdings.

I don't like this play. I went along this exact same line once and the villain has hit a small set on the flop. Got pretty much stacked very nicely because I _assumed_ I had the best hand.

[ciro bonano]

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you just letting QQ+ or a set stack you this way every single time? I'm a little confused why you think it's ok to call all the way w/o any idea of his holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this line would suck against QQ+ or a set, but the best line against those would be to fold preflop/the flop. I have to find a best line against his entire _range_.

What if he's holding KJ QJ and thinks he is valuebetting? What if he has TT? AK? All those hands would get away cheap if I raised somewhere.

[Eddi]

I cannot see AK firing 3 shots here a lot. Same goes for TT.
At best you're against KJ, maybe but not very likely QJ (this is assuming you don't have an image of a complete calling station, which you probably don't).

So consider the range being QQ+, KJ, AJ and sets (if he 3-barrels). What are you ahead of? KJ?

EDIT: I'd add to the range AhKh, AhQh, KhQh, QhJh and JhTh, where he could/would also 3-barrel and where you'd be behind by the river in this hand. I think overall this play is fine IF he doesn't PB the river. If he does I'm guessing your hand is no good.

[crovax4444]

why arn't you raising PF? Then if he donk bets you on the flop, you have a clearer idea of where you stand.

Mistakes on an earlier street will lead to a lot more mistakes on later streets

Crovax

[members_only]

[ QUOTE ]
why arn't you raising PF? Then if he donk bets you on the flop, you have a clearer idea of where you stand.

Mistakes on an earlier street will lead to a lot more mistakes on later streets

Crovax

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold-calling pf is hardly a massive mistake, and has very little to do with what the OP was wondering about

I just noticed that this is blind vs blind, which along with the fact that he only 1/2 potted the flop and turn makes me think calling him down here is fine. You might well get some value from a worse jack by raising though

[ciro bonano]

I stoved some ranges (I think you need to add some more random bluff hands or one AKo/TT combo), but it still isn't looking good on the river. I can agree with the river being a fold. So my main questions are about flop/turn play.

On the flop I could have raised for the same money which now allowed me to see a river card. Worse hands would have folded to the flop raise but they now have put in a turn bet, so for the same money I get more value out of worse hands, while losing the same against better hands, right?

[ QUOTE ]
why arn't you raising PF? Then if he donk bets you on the flop, you have a clearer idea of where you stand. Mistakes on an earlier street will lead to a lot more mistakes on later streets


[/ QUOTE ]
Again a bit of the same reasoning (and not much experience with sb opening ranges in a BvB battle). He will fold worse hands, I'm folding if he 4bets with QQ KK and forfeit my chance of spiking an ace. Furthermore, I keep the pot smaller to use my post-flop positional advantage. If I 3bet and he calls, I flop an ace or a jack I'm still not happy getting a lot of action.

[Blake Kyles]

I don't like just calling him down. You're giving someone with a Q or K free shots to draw out on you. I think you could make a reasonable argument for smooth calling the fop because it is so dry, although I generally wouldn't do that with a hand so weak. But I think I'm raising the turn. You'll get more value out of your hand this way versus other J’s, you'll put pressure on someone with a draw if they've picked one up, and you're defining your hand versus a potentially bigger hand.

[members_only]

I don't think KJ-JT fold to a flop raise

As played I also can't find a fold on the river

[corsakh]

I like it. Raising is quite retarded.